Are we gonna have to rescue France like we did in WW1&2?

Or should be just let it go the way of the veil?

Kini on October 23, 2006 at 2:37 PM

WWII, read your history: Germany was defeated the day Hitler decided to invade Russia. True, the US made an enormous contribution, the high water mark of which in the ETO was D-Day, but that “we saved France bit” is pretty much hyperbole IMO. You never hear the Brits talk like that, they have too much real national pride.

You might argue that Germany’s fate was sealed the day they decide to invade Russia – yes, from that point on they would be condemned to totalitarian, KGB-riddled servitude courtesy of Mother Russia – but I don’t think any serious person argues that Germany was actually defeated on that day – not even you I hope. Correct?

As to “saving France” being hyperbole: making this argument requires speculation, in that it asks what would have happened had the U.S. not been involved. All right, let’s speculate. What would have happened, and how? Red from Cornwall to Vladivostok? Or are you arguing that Russia was just strong enough to degrade the German war machine, thus drawing the Nazis out of their occupied lands, but not strong enough to succeed in their own campaign to conquer the rest of Europe?

Just for the sake of accuracy: WWI 117,000 US dead; 1.4 million French dead. So it’s a question of who really saved whom.

You have a habit of equating # of deaths with the role played in a victory or defeat. I think that’s a logical fallacy on your part, and a dangerous one at that. Isn’t the best form of victory one that is achieved without significant casualties? I don’t think a fighting force necessarily establishes its bona fides by pissing men away, but rather by how well it fights and wins the war in question. Your statistic by itself can just as easily suggest that the U.S. was a superior fighting force as it suggests that the U.S. was not involved.

(I’m not stipulating one or the other – I’m only suggesting your argument is bogus.)

RD on October 25, 2006 at 10:46 AM

[honora]

[RD] You might argue that Germany’s fate was sealed the day they decide to invade Russia – yes, from that point on they would be condemned to totalitarian, KGB-riddled servitude courtesy of Mother Russia – but I don’t think any serious person argues that Germany was actually defeated on that day – not even you I hope. Correct?

Correct. I sometimes forget that bloggers are painfully literal.

They have eyes, but they do not read…

That the bolded prediction did NOT come to pass – and France did not become yet another depraved vassal-state beholden to Stalin – was only because the U.S. rescued them from Russian “liberation”. (Oh yeah I forgot, Russia & France were “allies”…)

What my stats suggest for WWI is that the US did not rescue France in this conflict.

Your casualty figures – I even hesitate to call them stats – don’t suggest anything one way or the other.

And why should we be troubled by that anyhow? Who cares? We have enough better historical data we can use to draw conclusions.

For what it’s worth, I’m mum on who saved France during 1; it’s 2 I’m more concerned about. Specifically, your bogus inference that France was “saved” the moment the Russians started fighting the Germans. Who says the Russians weren’t an even greater threat to France than Germany? (Except on the Jewish Question of course…)

RD on December 28, 2006 at 6:38 PM