Do pregnant women have a constitutional right to shoot themselves in the belly?
posted at 1:28 pm on October 19, 2006 by Allahpundit
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I’m still getting caught up with other news, but here’s some red meat for our new commenters. Quote:
According to Lynn Paltrow, executive director at Advocates for Pregnant Women, the way to prevent cases like Skinner’s is to provide low-income women easier access to abortions and reproductive health resources.
“The question we shouldn’t be asking is, ‘What crime did she commit?’ But, ‘Why didn’t she have access to abortion services? Why didn’t she have access to mental health services?’” Paltrow said.
The case is up on appeal after the lower court dismissed the case against her.
She shot herself on her due date. Virginia’s late-term abortion ban was struck down by the Fourth Circuit last year for failing to allow abortions where giving birth would threaten the mother’s health.
Update: Please note: it is, indisputably, a criminal act for someone else to kill a woman’s fetus by intentionally injuring her. The question for the court here is whether there’s an exception for a mother who injures herself.
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Starfox5253, my wife would say pregnancy is miserable. 9 months of retching. Delivery was a breeze, though.
jdpaz on October 19, 2006 at 4:44 PM
Adding to my first comment, I just want to clarify that I believe abortion in any case at any time is heinous and out to be illegal. Therefore, even aborting children that obviously could not survive outside the womb is still murder. Is it not still human? Is it not still living and growing?
tiekitwist on October 19, 2006 at 4:46 PM
I love that when liberals can’t win on the merits of the case, they have to resort to calling into question the English language.
Well what do you mean by “any”? Gag me with a spoon.
I can just see the repercussions of this case. Joy.
(First post! Yay!)
bookwurm322 on October 19, 2006 at 4:49 PM
jdpaz-
Poor Gal! I never had the pukies, but I hope my delivery can go as well as your wife’s! (I’m starting to freak out a bit)
Starfox5253 on October 19, 2006 at 4:49 PM
See this is the problem. There is no compromise. Pro-lifers want it all their way. Pro-choicers want it all their way (like letting this woman walk). That’s why nothing gets done. You wind up getting the extreme cases, like a woman shooting herself in the stomach or a woman not even allowed to use an IUD for birth control.
Can’t we have some sort of middle ground?
CookeyD on October 19, 2006 at 4:51 PM
This case illustrates so much of what is wrong in our society today.
Scuzzy guy doesn’t know how to act like a real man, and just knocks up his girlfriend, who falls for his scuzzy abuse, and does the unthinkable. Yet now it’s (supposedly) the governments fault because she didn’t know about adoption, the CPC, or any other resource available to pregnant women. A mess from top to bottom.
Also, if it’s illegal for someone else to harm a fetus by harming the mother, then that establishes the baby as a separate entity. It shouln’t matter if someone else shot her or she did it. The baby is dead. Intent is what matters.
Jezla on October 19, 2006 at 4:51 PM
Starfox, I’m just coming out of the “physically miserable” stage. And believe me, I was. But, I figured it could be no worse than chemotherapy and kept my eyes on the prize. Now that I’m starting to feel better (a LOT) better, my mind is actually erasing how bad I felt. I guess that’s God’s plan!
I do have a friend that barfed all nine months, even during labor! She still loves her little one more than anything, and is just a little gun-shy (pardon the terrible pun) about getting pregnant again.
Congrats, btw. It’s good to see “evolution” working in favor of conservatives!
NTWR on October 19, 2006 at 4:52 PM
Starfox, I had zero issues during my pregnancy and my delivery was 20 minutes and 5 pushes. So there’s hope for you!
CookeyD on October 19, 2006 at 4:54 PM
Oh dear, how immature of those uneducated pro-lifers to want it all their way. I mean gosh, can’t they just give a little to the pro-choicers? Let them kill every other baby maybe?
No. We can’t have some sort of middle ground when the issue at hand is the brutal murder of defenseless and innocent unborn children.
tiekitwist on October 19, 2006 at 4:54 PM
GregH, your a liberal, liberal, liberal. No need to call you any names because being a liberal is the worse thing I could possibly call you. I hate to hear anything from you because you stand for everything I am so against. I know this is where you tell me you wish you could have a intelligent or civilized conversation. I guess killing unborn children is civilized? Or how much smarter you are than I am. Which I highly doubt. You only respond to get a reaction from people on this site and I am sure it makes your day when we do respond to your fanatical, leftist philosophies. Why else would you speak so flippantly about things that you know are wrong. How can killing an innocent child be right? Wouldn’t you feel more at home at Olberman’s website where you can rant with the other leftist?
locwilliam on October 19, 2006 at 4:54 PM
This looks like it might be a tough one for ‘liberals’ to decide. On the one hand, you have your new poster child for abortion (hmm…perhaps ‘child’ isn’t the right word). On the other hand, you have another example of handgun violence - a mother shooting her own baby no less! It’s going to be tough for them to decide which side of this issue to come down on.
On a less sarcastic note, this story is very disturbing. First it illustrates the extreme inequality in the abortion issue between men and women. If the woman’s boyfriend had shot her in the belly to kill the child because he felt he didn’t have any choices, everyone would be screaming about domestic violence and how tragic it was. He most likely be charged with murder (and possibly, attempted murder against the mother as well). Because the ‘mother’ did it instead of the boyfriend, it’s “case dismissed”. Furthermore, people are getting on their soap boxes to say that the government (i.e. taxpayers) are ultimately responsible because they didn’t provide enough services for the poor hapless girl. It makes no sense.
The other thing that seems odd is that people are questioning whether or not it’s safe for her to be around her other children or if she’s a danger to them. However, if she had just gone to a clinic and had a late-term abortion, most of those same people would think it was just fine for her to be around her children.
I think this case illustrates how mixed-up we’ve all gotten when it comes to abortion.
JadeNYU on October 19, 2006 at 4:56 PM
Of course it’s going to be a tough one to decide for the libs. They don’t use reason and logic to justify their positions.
Fatrap on October 19, 2006 at 4:59 PM
It is apparent that “poor, desperate 22-year-old” Tammy Skinner knew what she was doing was wrong from the fact that she lied about it to the 911 operator. I sure hope she can’t have anymore kids.
It is typical that people like Lynn Paltrow, executive director at Advocates for Pregnant Women, are looking for someone other than Tammy Skinner to blame this mess on. Maybe the gun manufacturer should be prosecuted for the death of the “fetus”.
P.S. My first post as a newly registered member. Ya!!!
cdodich on October 19, 2006 at 5:01 PM
NTWR-
Congrats to you too! Feeling good helps one forget the icky feelings. I have forgotten how some words (or even the shape of the state of Nebraska… weird, I know) used to make me feel gross. We conservative gals will out-breed those libs any day!
CookeyD-
Thanks for the kind words… I’ll be praying for such an easy delivery as yours!
Starfox5253 on October 19, 2006 at 5:05 PM
The more I think about it, I guess that was a stupid thing to say. As pro-choice, I’m willing to make a compromise. But as a person who believes it’s murder no matter what, I guess there could be no compromise.
CookeyD on October 19, 2006 at 5:09 PM
Who is to blame? We are. We, as a society, has let this young woman down. We have allowed that precious child within her womb to no longer have meaning. We have allowed life to become worthless. She’s 22. Already a mother of two. And her ‘boyfriend’ wouldn’t pay for an abortion. I have to ask, did she really know any better based on what she has been taught in her 22 years of existence?
I pray that she will seek God’s forgiveness. Because one day Satan will no longer blind her eye’s and she will see what she has done.
I also pray that we who know the value of life stay silent no more.
SWEt on October 19, 2006 at 5:24 PM
Consistency is not a strong, nor valued character trait on the Left.
nailinmyeye on October 19, 2006 at 5:26 PM
Ain’t never a truer statement been said!
SouthernGent on October 19, 2006 at 5:29 PM
Stay tuned for the movie… Honey I Shot The Kids.
Mojave Mark on October 19, 2006 at 5:45 PM
I think we should all keep our cool for a while, let the usual supspects make their inevitable stupid comments (which they actually believe are well inside of the mainstream) and then pounce.
Help them advertise this person as a hero of the abortion lobby and highlight all of the ridiculous supporters.
Especially the ones that are in races.
Hah.
btw - I think it’s time for a good old fashioned purge.
dnc_hindenburg on October 19, 2006 at 5:55 PM
Very little left to say that hasn’t already been said, but what scares me the most is how much of a slippery slope this is. If it’s alright to kill your child on your due date, how much more is it to kill a week, a month, a year, a decade down the line. This just adds more holes in the abortion argument.
My first post a registered member as well.
hsjk1 on October 19, 2006 at 6:01 PM
locwilliam asks(?) me:
Nowhere here, nor anywhere else, have I ever said that killing babies is right. As a father of two, and believer that all life is sacred, I am actually anti-abortion, thanks for asking.
But that wasn’t really a question now, was it? More like a proclamation that you think I am a “liberal” and “liberals love abortion”, so GregH thinks that killing babies is great.
Either your logical reasoning is flawed, or you’re playing dirty.
GregH on October 19, 2006 at 6:11 PM
Wow, this is a truly massive thread.
Savage on October 19, 2006 at 6:30 PM
The moment, the instant a man’s ejaculate leaves his penis and enters any woman’s vagina he has no rights yet is burdened with every possible responsibility for anything following that instant.
The same event - no woman ever has anything less than her full rights and her responsibilities are vague, unaccountable and are every day diminishing.
The above may not be strictly factual. Yet. But it is the way a wise man should view the current state of affairs… and act accordingly.
She knows as much about responsible uterus ownership as she does about responsible gun ownership.
“I got dressed and grabbed my gun.”
“I got somebody to load the gun, because I didn’t know how.”
Stephen M on October 19, 2006 at 6:36 PM
i was wondering when someone was going to say that! ;)
Good to know. you are beginning to slowly redeem yourself. :) No really, just like you, not all of us tow the party line.
pullingmyhairout on October 19, 2006 at 6:48 PM
Not really — main point in abortion argument is when it is a life. Nobdy argues that a 10 year old is a life. To make it more interesting, turn your time machine the other way. What happens if a woman shoots her belly a week before the due date? A month? 5 months? 5 minutes after fetilization? When is it taking a life?
Ferris on October 19, 2006 at 6:50 PM
If anyone deserves a back alley abortion, it’s this murdering broad.
JackM on October 19, 2006 at 7:07 PM
Ferris, ask any physician who’s not into eugenics when life begins, and they’ll say “at conception.”
If you want to read up on this more check out this site.
Warning, abortions are graphic and gory.
NTWR on October 19, 2006 at 8:00 PM
For all of you “I’m pro-choice but…” people:
You are twisted!
This woman could have gone to an abortion clinic that very same day, have the baby yanked breech into the birth canal, have forceps jammed in the base of it’s skull and have it’s brain removed with a suction catheter and you would applaud her CHOICE!
Remember, we were ALL a “non-viable lump of tissue” once.
irishsquid on October 19, 2006 at 8:13 PM
For all of you “I’m pro-choice but…” people:
This woman could have gone to an abortion clinic that same day, have the baby pulled breech into the birth canal, forceps jammed into the base of it’s skull, and have it’s brain sucked out with a suction catheter and you would applaud her choice!
irishsquid on October 19, 2006 at 8:19 PM
It’s murder no matter how you try to spin it. It’s sad the court chose to let her off
RichSchein on October 19, 2006 at 8:19 PM
Everything has been said. I’m just testing the software.
jrvass on October 19, 2006 at 8:43 PM
natesake,
Let me first apologize for misunderstanding your position to include being pro-choice. That surely would be inconsistent with the other two positions. Mea culpa.
On euthanasia, I understand your stance as you have expounded on it, and have no major problem with that. But FYI, assisted suicide and DNR issues aren’t honestly in the same category with euthanasia. Unfortunately, we’ve been on the slippery slope for some time, so the definitions get blurred, but euthanasia as defined in the late 70’s involved a direct and willful act that brought about the end of a life. DNRs and “pulling the plug” on artificial support systems are not exactly the same as introducing a toxin or oxygen-deprivation.
I find no inconsistency whatever in the Bible regarding a government’s lawful authority to execute retribution upon those convicted of serious crimes. That authority which began in Levitical laws is nowhere terminated by a superior authority. So there’s God’s law, upon which men of integrity and intellect throughout history have founded societal laws, which have universally included a compulsion to execute those who have forfeited their right to live through their actions.
Freelancer on October 19, 2006 at 8:44 PM
GregH, are you trying to tell me that you are not a liberal. Liberal-one who is broad minded, not strict the observance of orthodox, traditional or established forms or ways. GregH, this doesn’t describe you? Everything you have posted is prima facia evidence that you are a liberal. Everything you say that you feel would dictate that in fact you are liberal. If it walks, talks, acts, oh, and cries like a liberal, I would have to say then that it is a liberal.
locwilliam on October 19, 2006 at 8:57 PM
And some are still non-viable lumps of tissue.
Ugly on October 19, 2006 at 9:16 PM
In California, the answer to the question posed by the post title is: not a constitutional right, but a statutory right (at least, it’s not murder).
Patterico on October 19, 2006 at 9:19 PM
The choice was made when she had sex. A pregnancy is (usually) the consequence of the choice already made, not an opportunity for a new choice. Only in the case of rape, incest or to save the mothers life should abortion even be considered. Under no circumstance is this justified.
conservativecaveman on October 19, 2006 at 9:43 PM
Where does the gun control crowd stand on all of this? Was that gun licensed?
Joshua P. Allem on October 19, 2006 at 10:09 PM
I am totally against Live Birth Abortion, but I could be persuaded to change my mind if that was the only late term abortion method allowed in the United States. It seems to me that if the mother feels the child’s pain then justice has been served.
DannoJyd on October 19, 2006 at 11:17 PM
Of course.
The best way to avoid injury to murderers is to execute their victims FOR them.
I’ll be laughing my ass off in Heaven while that whore is burning in Hell.
Misha I on October 20, 2006 at 2:40 AM
And no, just to clarify, I’m not talking about the mother. What she did was wrong, but who knows what moved her to do what she did?
I’m talking about Lynn Paltrow.
Misha I on October 20, 2006 at 2:42 AM
Oh, and to clarify just exactly WHY Lynn Paltrow is an Idiotarian c*nt (and then I’ll shut up), consider this scenario:
“Out of a job and desperate to make his mortgage payment, John Doe broke into the home of Jane Smith to steal her valuables. During the fight that followed, John Doe was severely injured.”
“A spokesman for John Doe later stated: ‘The best way to avoid tragedies like this one would be for the State to confiscate Jane Smith’s property and give it to Mr Doe.’”
Misha I on October 20, 2006 at 2:47 AM
She aimed that shot a couple of feet too low.
Pablo on October 20, 2006 at 8:04 AM
So it’s not the fact that a child’s life is being taken that is upsetting? It’s merely the manner in which the child is butchered?
irishsquid on October 20, 2006 at 10:36 AM
How hard can it possibly be for a liberal to simply say, “Shooting yourself in the stomach to kill your baby should be illegal.” Anyone who cannot make that statement should be shot in the stomach.
If your morals are so screwed up that you actually have to toss around the idea of making this acceptable then there is no help for you.
There is no intellectual exercise here. Shooting yourself in the stomach in order to kill your baby is plain wrong.
Cary on October 20, 2006 at 11:17 AM
A) Who is “somebody”?
B) What “somebody” encountering an obviously deranged person who can’t figure out how to load their own gun, is going to assist them in doing same?
C) I call BS on this statement. It makes no sense. If its “my gun” as opposed to someone elses, I’m going to know how to operate “my gun”. A gun you can’t operate is just an expensive paper weight.
I don’t understand the kerfluffle over the definition of the word “any”. Words mean exactly what they mean unless the legislation has previously defined them differently than common/dictionary usage.
In SINGER v. UNITED STATES, 323 U.S. 338, Douglas put it quite well:
Purple Avenger on October 20, 2006 at 1:11 PM
I don’t know how you drew that conclusion. My point was that people who kill babies should feel the pain.
DannoJyd on October 20, 2006 at 1:16 PM
DannoJyd
I sincerely apologize if I misinterpreted your post. I get worked up about this subject.
irishsquid on October 20, 2006 at 2:34 PM
How can we make it impossible for wackos like this woman to ever again become pregnant? And what about her other children? If she’s that mentally unstable how can she be trusted to not harm them too? People are going to act in crazy, unpredictable ways and do effed up things - that’s a fact of life, but how we react as a society is the test of our civility. There must be another law she broke during this murder. Handgun violation? False report to a 911 dispatcher? Anything to get her jailed or institutionalized and facilitate the placement of her kids in a (hopefully) more stable home. All we have are our laws. In a situation like this, where someone has done something so fundamentally wrong, it’s up to prosecutors to make sure the perp is put away.
karatecon on October 20, 2006 at 2:49 PM
Irishsquid, no apology needed as I too get worked up on the subject of Live Birth Abortion. Besides, we Irish need to stick together.
I believe that current law would apply, and the baby killer could, and should be incarcerated.
DannoJyd on October 20, 2006 at 3:12 PM
[second attempt to post]
Irishsquid, no apology needed as I too get pretty worked up on the topic of Live Birth Abortions. Besides, we Irish need to stick together.
DannoJyd on October 20, 2006 at 3:39 PM
How about we take a minute out of our day just to mourn the baby?
Once we have done that, I think we should make a promise to ourselves that we will always be interested in what is going on with the young people in our lives. Maybe we can be a counterpoint to the sick voices Ms Skinner ended up listening to, whoever, or whatever they were.
My wife and I get involved at the local level, as we are able. Its not much, but I like to think we have helped a few young people become better adults.
ValhallaMike on October 20, 2006 at 6:50 PM
Thank you. I’m probably one of those who gets so angry about things like this that I need to refocus on this very point.
irishsquid on October 20, 2006 at 8:11 PM
A lot has been said but I think it’s important to remember that an abortion is a medical procedure while shooting something so it dies is not. If this woman had shot herself in the head and the baby had been taken from her body in a reasonable amount of time it most probably would have lived. Does anyone doubt that this woman shot herself with full intent of killing the baby?
So this wasn’t any sort of medical procedure and she wasn’t trying to commit suicide so it was an assault. If someone else had shot her to kill the full term baby nobody would have asked her if she had wanted it and that shouldn’t be part of the criteria in that she did it herself. The fact that the law did not address such a monsterous act doesn’t mean that the monsterous act was considered and allowed it just means that nobody had ever sank so low before and it just was never considered at all.
Buzzy on October 21, 2006 at 1:38 AM
If I was to shoot myself in the leg, even accidentally, I could be brought up on charges. It might only be something like discharging a firearm in the city limits, or something like that.
But a woman shooting herself in the belly to kill her baby? Eh… no big deal? It’s her “right”?
Up is down. Down is up. The sky is really green. Our societ is driving towards it’s own train wreck, on purpose.
It’s almost comical.
{sigh}
Lawrence on October 21, 2006 at 10:02 AM
HAVE WE LOST OUR ABILITY TO …THINK !!!!!
We have laws on the books that allow us to kill in self defense. (This takes care of abortion for rape, incest, or life of the mother).
We have laws on our books that call killing for convenience MURDER. (This covers all other killing of unborn children).
END OF STORY !!!!
Dollydog on October 21, 2006 at 11:29 AM
Crazy is as Crazy does…
Okay, too simple. She is obviously a complete nut. That should be her defense, because it has to be true. Everything else is politicking about abortion.
On the other hand… If it can be shown that there was a conspiracy to do this, and then to use it for any reason (advance pro-abortion rhetoric, get a book deal, you get the idea), she goes to jail for the max crime that applies.
RalphyBoy on October 21, 2006 at 12:25 PM
The woman did kill her baby, and while enroute to deliver her baby. This is a late term abortion, sans the induced labor and the puncturing of baby’s skull and insertion of the vacuum hose, followed by suctioning out of the content’s of baby’s skull which are part of late term, or “patrial birth” abortions.
Rather than waiting till baby was mostly born, this mom killed baby while she was about to be born.
In this case, mommy, who already has two children, decided to inject a bullet into baby’s tiny body and “terminate” or “abort” baby herself, thus becoming an abortionist without a licence, which a crime as well.
This is not a tragedy. A tragedy is when a family enroute to the seashore slips on a slick spot on the road, hits a tree, and the entire family dies.
What happened here is an atrocity. The atrocity is committed by the women against an innocent child. This should be a clear case of murder, or infanticide.
This case is a clear miscarriage of justice, leaving the murdered baby as the victim, and the abortionist-mother as the perpetrator of the crime.
William
William2006 on October 24, 2006 at 12:39 AM
Some say that abortion is a medical procedure. It is a medical procedure only in the sense that medical personnel are involved, and some medications might also be used.
Abortion is a medical procedure in the same way that lethal injection is a medical procedure. Both lethal injection and abortion are used to intentionally kill a human being. The difference between a lethal injection, or other form of execution, and abortion is, execution of a prisoner is carried out on a person who has been accused of a crime and has had the opportunity to defend himself in a court of law.
A baby has not committed a crime, and has not had the opportunity to defend herself in a court of law, nor has there been an opportunity given for anyone else to represent baby in a court of law and fight to defend her right to life.
Baby is being terminated-dismembered via abortion based on three main criteria: Her age - from between conception-fertilization till birth - up to approximately forty weeks gestation; her physical condition - she is not an adult and is still attached to her umbilical cord inside her mother’s womb; and her place of residence - inside her mother’s womb.
One would think that an advanced, enlightened society would embrace and value their progeny, their offspring, and that we would, as a society and as a culture, protect and cherish children, not slaughter them. Instead we treat them like greasy donuts, or a dead fish. We discard them with impunity, and we overwhelmingly employ false, scientifically inaccurate science in order to devalue their status as living, full, complete, albeit immature and developing, members of the human race.
With groups like Planned Murderhood, the largest organisation performing abortions in the United States of America, garnering so many acolades for their “service” at preventing births, and raking in millions on taxpayer money, and with the mainstream news media, including broadcast and print media, as well as Hollywood, acting as propaganda wings for the abortion brigades, is it any wonder that such outrageous events occur such as this woman killing her own baby?
William
William2006 on October 24, 2006 at 12:55 AM
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