The biblical idea is very clear: that you should only have sex with the person to whom you are married. Marriage is a requirement, backed up by Scripture in both Old and New Testaments. Any sex outside of marriage is fornication, and a sin.

red_five on October 19, 2006 at 11:30 AM

AMEN red_five, AMEN. ALL of your comments were brilliant and 100% correct. If only they would listen. Unfortunately some here will bristle when Biblical truth is spoken.

As a former single 20-year-old who slept with her long-time boyfriend/future husband before marrying him who wanted to argue scripture with her mother, I’ll say you’re right and wrong.

It’s correct to say the Bible isn’t quite clear to say sex outside of marriage is wrong. Joseph and Mary were not married but technically would not have been morally wrong if they’d slept together.

Clearly they didn’t, otherwise Joseph wouldn’t have freaked out when he realized she was pregnant, but the Bible didn’t originally consider fornication to include any and all sex outside of marriage.

And more:

Being “one flesh” is associated with the act of sex where two people literally become as one, and the Bible is clear that it does not want that bond to ever be broken. And becoming “one flesh” is not a one-time thing. It lasts beyond the physical.

So basically, the Biblical ideal is to only have sex with one person your entire life, not necessarily marriage. Though as someone who’s been on both sides, marriage is the easiest way to contain this one-flesh bond, at least in my opinion.

I’m not sure where to begin. The Bible is exceeding clear that sex outside of marriage is wrong. infidel4life said earlier:

Homosexual behavior is condemned in no uncertain terms in every passage that mentions it.

And let me be absolutely clear. I’m not referring to adultery, prostitution, incest, pedophilia, rape, or coercion. An unmarried adult male and an unmarried adult female having a consensual relationship. Period.

An unmarried adult male and an unmarried adult female having a consentual (not consensual, though the misspelling is somewhat apropos) relationship falls under the definition of fornication, which is mentioned all over the Bible as a sin. It doesn’t matter whether consent is given. Furthermore, fornication is often, but not always, used to include adultery, which is defined as a man (single or married) having sex with a married woman.

Joseph and Mary didn’t have sex during their betrothal period because they weren’t married. If they had, it would have been fornication, and therefore a sin.

Homosexuality, rape, and incest also fall under fornication, and are therefore sin. All forms of fornication defile the very image of God, since we are created in His image. Marriage is the only place where sex is permitted, because the marriage relationship is the earthly example of the relationship between the 3 aspects of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Participate in fornication, and you destroy that image.

Finally, the “one flesh” idea has been taken to an absurd level. You know how the typical marriage vows say “’til death do us part”? That’s because the marriage vow is ended upon the death of one of the spouses. It does not last beyond this phisical existence, and there is no marriage in heaven except that we humans become the bride of Christ. Once one of the spouses has died, it is perfectly fine for the surviving partner to remarry. The “one flesh” bond is not to be broken in life except by death, or by divorce in the case of fornication by one of the spouses.

The biblical idea is very clear: that you should only have sex with the person to whom you are married. Marriage is a requirement, backed up by Scripture in both Old and New Testaments. Any sex outside of marriage is fornication, and a sin.

GALATIANS 5:19-21
19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

See a fake, an actual minister of Satan, is not content with merely misleading you as to what’s in the Bible, the demon that guides his life demands that he get you to actually VIOLATE the EXPRESS commands OF THE SCRIPTURES! In doing so he does his fathers work as Jesus said.

JOHN 8:44
John 8:44 (King James Version)

44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

There is also this, which seems to warn quite explicitly AGAINST tailoring the message of God to the corruption of this present world.

ROMANS 12:1-2

1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2. AND BE NOT CONFORMED TO THIS WORLD: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Hmmmm. So why would a preacher actually ENCOURAGE you to violate the commandments of Christ as it relates to personal comportment? Why would he have his flock engage in lasciviousness and sexual titallation ? Well, that’s easy. First you have to know exactly who this hell bound freak is……

2CORINTHIANS 11:13-15
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Betcha didn’t know that Satan has ministers too, did you? And they are masquerading as ministers of Christ just like this fake. How do you spot them, well you’d have to actually know what is in the Bible to do that.

The definitive parody in this area was published in the Onion a few years ago, but naturally it warrants a content warning. Proceed at your own risk.

That. Was. Hysterical.

On the sex thing, I think you got some bad intel. Admittedly I’m protestant not Catholic, but all the people I know are pro-sex (within marriage). In fact, my pastor gave a sermon earlier this year about the importance of sex to a healthy marriage.

You might also be interested in this book by one of my favorite pastors. It’s available in March.

That’s over the line AP IMO. Using a quote of scripture that refers to Jesus and twisting it into a sexual context isn’t cool.

P.S. to Muslims: There’s no need to become “outraged” on us Christian’s behalf. Thanks for thinking of us, though.

OK, I’m open to a Biblical argument that consensual sex between an unmarried adult couple is destructive. Personally I believe that if you go back to the original languages, there isn’t any.
infidel4life on October 18, 2006 at 1:18 AM

As a former single 20-year-old who slept with her long-time boyfriend/future husband before marrying him who wanted to argue scripture with her mother, I’ll say you’re right and wrong.

It’s correct to say the Bible isn’t quite clear to say sex outside of marriage is wrong. Joseph and Mary were not married but technically would not have been morally wrong if they’d slept together.

Clearly they didn’t, otherwise Joseph wouldn’t have freaked out when he realized she was pregnant, but the Bible didn’t originally consider fornication to include any and all sex outside of marriage.

However, when you look to Genesis, the Bible speaks very clearly of “becoming one flesh”.

Genesis 2:24-25
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Mark 10:7-9
“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Malachi 2:15
Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.

Being “one flesh” is associated with the act of sex where two people literally become as one, and the Bible is clear that it does not want that bond to ever be broken. And becoming “one flesh” is not a one-time thing. It lasts beyond the physical.

So basically, the Biblical ideal is to only have sex with one person your entire life, not necessarily marriage. Though as someone who’s been on both sides, marriage is the easiest way to contain this one-flesh bond, at least in my opinion.

He is risen

That’s over the line AP IMO. Using a quote of scripture that refers to Jesus and twisting it into a sexual context isn’t cool.

Please excuse me, but I have to go get my freak on….

Just how is it she knows what the flavor is under his tongue? And you thought the French started it?

“And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: And the men of the place asked him of his wife; and he said, She is my sister: for he feared to say, She is my wife; lest, said he, the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah; because she was fair to look upon. And it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked out at a window, and saw, and behold, Isaac was sporting with Rebekah his wife. And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife: and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.” Genesis 26:6-10

The term sporting is not as ambiguous as it might at first seem, considering that it is the sporting itself that leaves Abimelech convinced that they are married.

“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” Hebrews 13:4

To cut off attempts to twist, the language usage in Greek is crystal clear that the marriage bed is what is undefiled, the phrase does not stand apart from the marriage comment.

Those are among the most notable, but by no means the comprehensive list of verses that approve of physical pleasure in marriage.

The kicker is for anyone to offer up ONE VERSE from the Bible that restricts sex to procreation only.

While you are at it, find one verse that allows for sex outside of a marriage. It doesn’t exist. All forms of intimate physical contact between non-married individuals is wrong and abhorrent to God.

AP, C.S. Lewis is an excellent source for Christian apologetics, because his arguments are always airtight and constructed with flawless logic. Plus, he illustrates his concepts with real human behaviors (albeit 1940′s and 1950′s British behaviors). I personally love Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, and The Great Divorce. Miracles, The Four Loves, and The Abolition of Man are also outstanding for a deeper understanding of God and mans relationship to Him.

OK, AP, when are you going to divulge the C.S. Lewis versus boudoir riddle? You’ve had at least two commenters bet…

And on your “for procreation or pleasure?” – none for you, ’cause you’re single, and you need to maintain your virginity.

infidel4life on October 18, 2006 at 1:55 AM”

Heh, I’m going to sleep now. Can we take this up again tomorrow? Via email, perhaps?

Next month 25 year anniversary

Procreative sex, sure. Sex for pleasure, though?

The bit you quoted about sex being good for marriage is the relevant bit. Yah. Church wants strong marriages. Marriage good. Sex good for marriage. Ergo. Catholic church, problem with sex outside procreation. In practice lots of Catholics either totally ignoring that or rampantly embracing it. Protestants, not so much problem with the concept.

Mary K’s with the C.S. Lewis syllabus, hands down. I wish I’d found somebody to bet with me. Sorry, Alex K, but the Catholics aren’t real big on the Lewis angle. :)

Why not homosexuals?

tikvah on October 18, 2006 at 1:35 AM

Homosexual behavior is condemned in no uncertain terms in every passage that mentions it.

And let me be absolutely clear. I’m not referring to adultery, prostitution, incest, pedophilia, rape, or coercion. An unmarried adult male and an unmarried adult female having a consensual relationship. Period.

Let’s have the argument from the Hebrew and the Greek.

But just because God sympathizes with and helps me doesn’t mean that He just winks and looks the other way as I engage in behavior that will destroy me.

OK, I’m open to a Biblical argument that consensual sex between an unmarried adult couple is destructive. Personally I believe that if you go back to the original languages, there isn’t any.

And I didn’t mean to imply that you are necessarily a ‘religious’ person, only that I’m glad I will not be judged by one.

Now if other Christians would just imitate the Catholics and LDS and celebrate and encourage abundant progeny. Then at least we Christians won’t have to be pulling out our hair when we look at the world’s religion’s demographic trends.

infidel4life on October 18, 2006 at 12:15 AM”

That got me thinking. I really appreciate your comment; I didn’t realize how I was coming across, and I want you to know what was in my heart. I didn’t say what I did as a “religious person” or as anything more than a sinful person, saved by the grace of God, who knew what was right, decided not to care, and found my Savior on the other side, overwhelming me with grace and forgiveness.
You’re absolutely right that God is patient with us and knows where we are coming from. The Bible says that Jesus was tempted in every way that we are tempted and it also says that God will not let us be faced with any temptation that we can’t handle; He is always faithful to provide a way out. But just because God sympathizes with and helps me doesn’t mean that He just winks and looks the other way as I engage in behavior that will destroy me. When He asks me to do something, there’s always an element of blessing and protection from consequences that’s involved. I’m free to choose my way, but at what cost?
Anyway, thanks for making me think. And in case it still needs to be said, I in no way think I’m better than anyone who might be reading this. In fact, I know I’m worse.

Infidel: I’m not saying that’s going to happen. I’m saying, what would be the outcomes if that were the case? And no, I’m not married.

tikvah on October 18, 2006 at 12:26 AM

The outcome would be a utopia of moral perfection, albeit quite unattainable (except by those of perfect moral character, who except for Christ do not even exist), similar to Karl Marx’s fantasy of a perfect world.

But in the real world, for better or for worse, we must accept and confront reality as it is. God doesn’t call us to deny reality, He calls us to make the best of it.

And way to turn theological education into a…different kind of email tradition…and brag, all at the same time. Rock on, Christianity.