And so America’s Christian conservative movement is confronted with this divide: small government advocates who want to practice their faith independent of heavy-handed government versus big government sympathizers who want to impose their version of “righteousness” on others through the hammer of law.

And the Red Letter Christians are Red? That’s not what I’ve heard. From their site:
For decades, leaders of the Religious Right have attempted to convince Christians and the American public that people of faith and strong moral values have only one option when it comes to voting.
Esthier on October 12, 2006 at 12:07 PM

Jim Wallis is a minister of SATAN, he’s like the “Reverend” Barry Lynde, who breathes blasphemy with every breath. The nancy boys will think these statments harsh because they don’t know that the Bible declares that satan HAS MINISTERS. This would lead to having to actually READ THE BIBLE in order to determine WHO’S WHO and we can’t have that, now can we? Nevertheless the Bible does declare that the devil has ministers and they comprise the Red Letter Christians, the Vatican and all their offshoots.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (King James Version)

13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14. And no marvel; FOR SATAN HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.

15. Therefore it is no great thing IF HIS MINISTERS ALSO BE TRANSFORMED AS THE MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works.

The true Christian CHurch is the APOSTOLIC CHURCH, who’s doctrine of baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, has not changed since Peter gave the first sermon on the day of Pentecost.

Would you like to know how you can spot a minister of satan? He will never deal with the scriptures SPECIFICALLY! The Bible as you may or may not know, deals with many many subjects concerning the human condition. Everything from communism, to killing children in sacrifice is discussed in great detail. See, these Red Letter Guys? They’re nothing more than liberals trying to fund social programs! And given the paucity of Biblical knowledge on this supposedly conservative site and in the world in general, they are able to FOOL MANY.

See, the subject of the poor is dealt with GENERALLY in scriptures like ” take care of the widows and orphans”, NOT specifically. Notice a group of people missing from that list? Where are the men? AH-HAH! Now, you will see the devil Jim Wallis and cohorts in action! See, they’d like to use scriptures like that to justify funding for every liberal entitlement ever created! But curiously every time Jesus mentioned caring for the poor, as in widows and orphans, he never mentioned the MEN, I wonder why? See Wallis and his cronies don’t want you to know that the Bible deals with the subjects of LAZINESS and LAYING AROUND ON YOUR FAT ASS WHILE OTHERS WORK, SPECIFICALLY not generally. They don’t want you to know this because it would make them look as stupid as they are! But the church in Thessolonica had an epidemic of LAZINESS! People were of the mind that they would just wait on the Lord’s return and NOT BOTHER TO WORK sounds like a welfare state to me!

2Thessalonians 3: 10-12

10. For even when we were with you, THIS WE COMMANDED YOU, THAT IF ANY WOULD NOT WORK, NEITHER SHOULD HE EAT!!! (oops! see they don’t want you to know this! It’s why some of ‘em speak Latin!)

11. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

12. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

So as you can see these fake preachers would rather not deal with the scriptures that GOVERN certain behaviour or situations, they would rather fool you with general scriptures that they can twist.

P.S. This is why I laid all that stuff on you about the Lord’s condemnation of Homosexuality! If you tried to determine the Lords take of homosexuality you would be an idiot to take a GENERAL scripture like “God is Love”, and think you found the answer. That would neglect the voluminous scriptures where the LORD SPECIFICALLY tells you, what homosexuality is, where it comes from, and how you BETTER end up “feeling” about it!

Honora, I am impressed, you made some points that have had me thinking, thank you.

Soothsayer – caps = SHOUTING and is very rude. Try the emphasis tag, it is much more effective. I agree with much of what you said, it was just hard to read.

Ennuipundit – I couldn’t possibly agree with you about your views on abortion and God’s will. They are diametrically opposed to His character and His words in the Bible. Sin is sin and it is never acceptable.

I wish I could add something to this discussion, but I am afraid all I have is kudos and criticism tonight.

At least, according to the former head of faith-based initiatives.Kuo, who has complained publicly in the past about the funding shortfalls, goes several steps further in his new book. He says some of the nation’s most prominent evangelical leaders w…

“Is everyone in the GOP gay?”

Well…ummm…we are talking about a split party, Conservatives have been forced to back of the bus and the rest seem to identify well with progressives and share townhouses.

What’s truley amazing is how much George is willing to risk in his quest to globalize/third world populate America.
He has sided with Liberals, left our borders and ports open and has aided and abetted the invasion which we know includes terrorsts.
And, Americans are pissed, if Demos win not only has he sacrificed his own precious Neos but has put his own head on a plate, because Pelosi WILL impeach.
To what end?

Leftists need to decide: is Bush a fundie nutjob … Or is he a calculating secularist … Can’t have it both ways, boys. – Allahpundit

Yes AP! I smell spin. Another tell-all book just before an election to hopefully fracture a voting bloc. Valiant found Kuo on beliefnet an ‘all faiths are equal’ site where under ‘Hindu’ you can ‘find a temple’. The one thing beliefnet isn’t, is fundamentalist – the normal definition of ‘Evangelical’, that is acceptance of the Bible as the word of God and the requirement to sow the one truth across the world as commanded by Jesus. Evangelicals do not accept tabs for other faiths on their web sites.

Now I don’t mean to dis the folks who send Dr. Dobson and others a check every now and then, but I also recognize that making an alliance with secular forces for the advancement of policy is not how God intended his message be spread – Ennuipundit

I admire Dr. Dobson greatly. He fights against sin and for Christian values. He tries to witness these values to those of influence. He will know if he is being dissed – he is a Christian, for Heaven’s sake, and by Christ’s own advice, Dobson will expect mockery. That is a reason to stay, not go, if you are an Evangelist!

By serving up the Evangelicals on a platter to the Republican party, Christian leaders marginalized them, the same way that the so-called Civil Rights leaders marginalized African-American voters – Ennuipundit

I don’t remember being on a platter, but I listen to Pat Robertson a lot. I admire Jerry Falwell, Dr. James Kennedy, John Hagee. They gravitate to the GOP because it represents more of their values. They are not exactly feted at the White House. They aren’t stupid. They are feted in Israel. Netanyahi will meet with any of them. The White House will test the wind first.

Ennuipundit, are you confusing Evangelism with Libertarianism? You misread Paul:

I believe simply that because free will is the greatest gift that God gave to us, pronounced by our ability to sin, and affirmed by Paul’s declaration that “everything is permissable”. In that spirit, I cannot in good conscience deny free will to others to do as they wish, even if that is a sin..
Yet, a Christian spreads the Gospel of love and grace not by banning it, but by showing the women who would choose it that they have other options and that even if they choose the abortion, that God will always love them.
So my question to you is, would a candidate with that sincerely held stance on abortion be acceptable to you – Ennuipundit

You give new meaning to Evangelical. Evangelicals do not oppose making murder a crime. It goes back to the Ten Commandments (thou shalt not murder) and “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee”
I offer you a question for an answer: who do we love more: the mother, or the child? I know such law cannot be enforced until we change hearts, but who expected a declared Evangelical to love one, more than the other?

After all, if the Founding Fathers wanted freedom of Homosexuality in this country, why did Jefferson (Thomas, not Davis) help get laws passed to castrate homosexuals?

I suppose you agree with their positions on slavery, as well?

I still can’t figure out why we’ll kick Evangelical Christians in the teeth, but kiss the @$$es of a bunch of sodomizers.

After all, if the Founding Fathers wanted freedom of Homosexuality in this country, why did Jefferson (Thomas, not Davis) help get laws passed to castrate homosexuals?

Tim Burton on October 12, 2006 at 8:41 PM

Some people who aren’t evangelical Christians nevertheless find reasons to like them. It’s safe to say they don’t look for such reasons in you.

After all, if the Founding Fathers wanted freedom of Homosexuality in this country, why did Jefferson (Thomas, not Davis) help get laws passed to castrate homosexuals?

“What would you do if you took all those people who are homosexual out of all those offices?”–Helen Cindrich in USA Today

It seems that homosexuals are among those who are well-positioned for any sort of work with which family responsibilities can otherwise come into sharp conflict or in which the interests of one’s family can produce a conflict of interest.

Moreover, “he who is held wise by day will not be held crazy by night,” as Machiavelli once told a homosexual friend who was worried about losing his position of high responsibility if he were exposed. Whatever happens in coming weeks, one will see that positions of high responsibility will always come to have more than their share of homosexuals, because there will always be those employers who will observe that the sexual talents of a homosexual employee do not impair his other talents but, on the contrary, leave him ample time in which to develop and use them.

I think GWB duped all of us in the republican party.

Who knew he would be worse than Clinton. He has increased the size of Government, left the border wide open, is trying to form the north American Union just like the EU…….ect

With respect for your views, Scotty; I mostly disagree. Government size increased because of 19 radical fools. No 9/11, no Homeland Security.

The border issue you are mostly correct on. He’s belatedly started doing something about it (approving “some” money, sending National Guard troops, and will be signing the Fence Act) after the Minutemen forced his hand. I’m quite of the opinion that he’s tried to stay away from that issue like every other president before him. It’s an extremely touchy issue and could cost some seats in the House and Senate. I don’t excuse him for his lapse; I’m just pointing out what might be a misguided reason.

This North American Alliance you speak of is new to me. I don’t hear anything coming out of Congress about negotiations with Canada and Mexico about integrating our economies by switching currency to something that gives equal value for all 3 nations regardless of productivity, rewriting our Constitution into a meaningless collection of hundreds of pages of political blather, permitting free legal access across all borders (that talk comes only from Mexico from what I’ve seen), or forming a tri-nation unaccountable government that forces rules and standards on all three nations. Sounds like a Democrat’s utopia to me.

What I do know about Bush is that after America got kicked in the crotch and punched in the nose, he picked us up, wiped off the blood and led us to some righteous ass kicking. His primary job is defending us and he swung into that full tilt (except instantly sealing the southern border). It’s good to have a Pres. that will actually go to war when we are attacked instead of going whining to the Useless United Nations. In that aspect, he’s done remarkably well.

ridiculous,’ ‘out of control,’ and just plain ‘goofy,

Hmmm, why would anyone think that?

Leftists need to decide: is Bush a fundie nutjob who’s ready to usher in the Rapture with a few well placed ICBMs? Or is he a calculating secularist who thinks the idea of a Rapture is silly and mock-worthy? Can’t have it both ways, boys.

A.P. How is it that you’re blaming “leftists”? The book was written by the guy Bush put in charge of the “Faith Based Initiatives Office”!! The article you link to goes this way….

More than five years after President Bush created the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, the former second-in-command of that office is going public with an insider’s tell-all account that portrays an office used almost exclusively to win political points with both evangelical Christians and traditionally Democratic minorities.

There can be no doubt that Bush has been pimping the truly religious community like they were five dollar whores! Where’s that AMMENDMENT banning homosexual marriage? Where’s the funding to “no child left behind”? They got left behind. Why are homos still attacking the BOY SCOUTS? The supreme court said they were okay so how is it that the legal system under BUSH has been used to threaten and intimidate them? How is it that under his presidency the DISGUSTING FILTHY SODOMY ORIENTED crap that they are teaching ELEVEN YEAR OLDS IN SEX ED has actually INCREASED!!!!!!!

All of the stories on WORLD NET DAILY about homosexual indoctrination that is going on in our schools, NOT TO MENTION THE INDOCTRINATION INTO ISLAM, has happened on Bush’s WATCH!!!!!!

Maybe he’s like the some of the “Christians” on this site who OBJECT TO WHAT THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SAYS, preferring their “feelings” instead! Either way, he’s a fake and a phony. Have you been paying attention during the last six years? HELLO? The number of teachers screwing their students and RECEIVING LITTLE PUNISHMENT at the hands of the BUSH JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, has INCREASED under Bush’s watch.

Religious conservatives have been waiting for years, slaving away in the minefield of secularist facism to secure SUPREME COURT JUDGES that don’t think it’s okay to screw SHEEP! What does Bush do when given the chance? He nominates his GRANDMOTHER who doesn’t even understand the equal protection clause of the constitution as it relates to PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION!

AND WHERE’S THAT DAMNED MARRIAGE AMMENDMENT ANYWAY? I know I said it before but I’m saying it AGAIN. At least CLINTON passed THE DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT!!!!! WHAT HAS BUSH DONE….NOT SAID…..DONE, TO PROVIDE SIMILIAR OR GREATER LEGISLATION????? Where has the issue gone? The same place DISCO went my friend, it went the way of DISCO.

I think GWB duped all of us in the republican party.

ScottyDog on October 12, 2006 at 5:25 PM

If Bush the ChimpHaliburtonDoofusAwolDyslexicRetard duped you (not all of us, speak for yourself), where exactly does that leave you on the brain-o-meter?

The left will do their hypocrisy dance and make a fuss, but many insiders have characterized the President as a genuine compassionate conservative. In fact, Mr. Kuo himself said it:…

Who knew he would be worse than Clinton. He has increased the size of Government, left the border wide open, is trying to form the north American Union just like the EU…….ect

The only thing he has done is keep his zipper up

He fooled me once.

People who are genuinely upset over the fact that Rove isn’t a True Believer and that politics (politics!?!?) are occuring in Washington are infantile morons. We aren’t the party. We use the party and the party uses us. It’s a relationship and most adults understand this. Every week you go to the line and fight the good fight and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but in a democracy the fight is never over. Sometimes you take and hold a hill for generations and sometimes you hold it for a month, but the holding of it is never without effort.

That may have been the most sensible paragraph in the history of blogging. Ever.

Good work, Apologist.

The only people disappointed in the Republicans this year are the people who thought they were going to get everything they wanted and wouldn’t have to compromise with any other faction within or without the Republican Alliance. Border nuts, Jesus freaks, Iran carpet-bombers, Pre-Rooseveltian libertarians, and Xenophobic Oil-haters all got screwed a little this cycle. It’s better than getting screwed alot. How would you like to have been a Canadian HealthCare Wantin’ LibDem this last cycle? Or a War Stoppin’ Jihadi Sympathizin’ University professor? You could keep yourself busy complaining, but that’s about all you would have been able to get done.

People who are genuinely upset over the fact that Rove isn’t a True Believer and that politics (politics!?!?) are occuring in Washington are infantile morons. We aren’t the party. We use the party and the party uses us. It’s a relationship and most adults understand this. Every week you go to the line and fight the good fight and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, but in a democracy the fight is never over. Sometimes you take and hold a hill for generations and sometimes you hold it for a month, but the holding of it is never without effort.

I’m less insulted by Rove than Pelosi, Sullivan, Reid, Dean, Kennedy, etc., ad infinitum. At least with the Republicans you get someone who will listen to your concerns and help accomplish twenty or thirty percent of your goals. Democrats will crucify you at the insistance of the Nut-Roots. Republicans aren’t purgers. It’s why Sullivan doesn’t fit in anymore. You don’t get everything, but you get something.

Does it really matter anymore which party I vote for?

Lawrence on October 12, 2006 at 3:38 PM

Only if you don’t want nukes raining down on your head, higher taxes, a national health care system that will make the current deficit/debt look like pocket change, illegal immigrants receiving amnesty, endless investigations in lieu of meaningful legistlation, liberal activist judges on the Supreme Court ……

This summer we had a post titled “I Wish Pat Robertson Would Please Shut Up!” So if Rove said likewise that wouldn’t shock me. If he said the same about Christians in general, I would take that a bit more personally.

That said, there’s still a big difference between contempt for a few outspoken individuals (apparently coming from Rove) and comparing evangelicals to the taliban as Kevin Phillips, Michelle Goldberg and a host of others on the left have done recently.

It’s sad that this is the choice, but I’d rather be considered a “nut” than a potential terrorist.