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Video: Bush on North Korean nuke test; Update: Equivalent to “several hundred tons of TNT” Update: Second blast detected?

posted at 10:41 am on October 9, 2006 by Allahpundit
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The other thread’s grown unwieldy; new NK updates will be added here.


The head of South Korean intelligence reports “unusual movements” this afternoon at another NK nuke site. Kim likes his provocations in bunches, as you’ll recall.

Japanese planes are monitoring radiation levels on the peninsula; I did some bomb math at the end of the previous thread and it seems to me the Russian figure of 5-15 kilotons is likelier than the South Korean pop-gun estimate of 550 tons. Meanwhile, the Australian has a primer on the nuttiness of the North Korean dictator for those who still need one.

Israel’s worried, but then Israel’s always worried.

Update: International condemnations: a round-up.

Update: Dorkafork thinks the yield was probably in the neighborhood of 2 kilotons:

I’d have to do more math to get the precise equation, but basically for every 0.2 on the Richter scale, you either double or halve the kilotons. So a 4.2 takes twice as much TNT as a 4.0, and a 3.8 takes half as much as a 4.0. That means theoretically if 4.0=1KT, then 550 tons would be about 3.8 on the Richter scale. (50 megatons would measure a little under 7.2, when it’s discussed people may just round it down to 7.0. If you look at that chart again, 50 megatons falls between 7.0 (32MT) and 7.5 (178MT)).

This depends on 1) how accurate the Richter reading is and 2) how accurately the Richter value can be used to determine the yield. From what I’ve read 1) would be pretty accurate, I have no idea on 2). Just from the chart I’d expect a 4.2 to be caused by a 2 kiloton bomb and expect a 550 ton bomb to generate a 3.8, but it’d be easy for me to be wrong on that.

Update: An all-too-relevant video clip. Content warning.

Update: North Korea’s ambassador to the UN wonders: where are all the congratulations?

Update: Next up for NK? Figuring out how to put the bomb on top of a missile.

Update: The Security Council has formally nominated Ban Ki-Moon of South Korea to succeed Kofi as Secretary-General.

Update: China received 20 minutes warning of the test from North Korea. Russia received two hours.

Update: Iranian state radio puts the NorK nuke test to good use by framing it as a logical response to economic sanctions:

“Not only did the United States not lift the sanctions it had imposed on North Korea, it even increased the diplomatic pressure. Such pressure finally led North Korea to conduct its nuclear test,” Iranian state radio said in a commentary.

“North Korea’s nuclear test was a reaction to America’s threats and humiliation,” it said.

Update: Defense Tech says the test was a major dud:

3.58-3.7 gives you a couple hundred tons (not kilotons), which is pretty close in this business unless you’re really math positive. The same equation, given the US estimate of 4.2, yields (pun intended) around a kiloton.

A plutonium device should produce a yield in the range of the 20 kilotons, like the one we dropped on Nagasaki. No one has ever dudded their first test of a simple fission device. North Korean nuclear scientists are now officially the worst ever.

Update: The Freepers remind us of yet another fabled set of Clintonian plans that were never acted upon.

Update: Just breaking on Fox News, a top U.S. official claims that the test produced a blast equivalent to several hundred tons of TNT — not even one full kiloton. That jibes with the South Korean estimate from last night and puts us back in the “implausibly low” box. What’s going on here? Are government officials lying to downplay the threat or did the NorKs really fail this badly? And if the latter, how do we know this was a nuclear test? I haven’t seen a single report confirming any radiation detection.

Update: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Darfur, Pakistan, Thailand, North Korea, and you can officially add Somalia to the list of the world’s “trouble spots”: the ruling Islamists have officially declared jihad on Ethiopia.

Update: Bolton’s submitted a resolution to the UN with 13 separate “elements.” I can’t find a copy yet, but topping the list is international cargo inspections of all ships coming and going from North Korea.

Update: Hastert lunges at his chance to change the subject.

Update: Bob Owens looks at the seismic data and says something seems odd.

Update: Chester’s on the same page as Bob and me.

Update: Dave from Garfield Ridge finds the moral of the story:

We are going to go to war with Iran.

If anyone cares to learn the lesson from the North Korean experience, it’s unavoidably this: any nation that is determined to acquire nuclear weapons will lie, cheat, and steal, for years and even decades, in order to get them, and no number of carrots will entice them to do otherwise. Iran’s intentions are precisely as clear as those of North Korea were ten years ago. Left unchecked, Iran *will* become a nuclear power. We either stop them now, or we repeat history again in the future. Only this time, rather than a nuclear-armed pariah state isolated by its neighbors and restrained by the most populous nation in the world, we’d face an unrestrained nuclear-armed state openly hostile to every single interest of America in the region, AND willing and eager to do something about it, including using terrorist groups to attack us and our interests.

Update: Jim Treacher e-mails re: Foley, “Remember Gary Condit? Remember how he paled in comparison? This is making me nervous.”

Update: Harry Reid, ever helpful:

I urge the President to immediately appoint a senior official to conduct a full review of his Administration’s failed North Korea policy, develop recommendations to change course, and directly communicate to the North Koreans the consequences of their actions and the Administration’s new course. On North Korea as in other national security policies, the Bush Administration and the Republican-controlled Congress have made America less secure. It is time for a new direction.

Update: I saw this linked before on Free Republic but there’s been nothing about it on TV. Have the NorKs detonated a second bomb?

Update: In case you’re wondering, Stratfor makes clear that there’s no military solution to this problem:

“[I]t is quite conceivable that Kim Jong-Il and his advisors — or other factions — might construe even the most limited military strikes against targets directly related to missile development or a nuclear program as an act threatening the regime, and therefore one that necessitates a fierce response.” North Korea could retaliate using the 10,000 fortified artillery pieces currently trained on the South Korean capital of Seoul; it also has over 100 No-Dong missiles capable of hitting deep into South Korean territory or else targeting Japan. The artillery alone could be devastating for South Korea. As William C. Triplett II noted in his 2004 book Rogue State, North Korea is capable of firing “between 300,000 and 500,000 artillery shells per hour on the Seoul metropolitan area.”


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So you’re a mathematician now?

The North Koreans haven’t made any claims on its potency?

frankj on October 9, 2006 at 10:45 AM

Another member of the Axis of Evil is askin’ to be removed from the list.

Tony737 on October 9, 2006 at 10:51 AM

President Bush sounds very serious and determined, which is a good sign. However, I’ll believe “The International Community will respond” comment when I see it.

I give the wimpy, liberal, anti-American South Koreans two days to start backtracking on strong action that would include sanctions.

januarius on October 9, 2006 at 10:52 AM

I just read your “roundup” Allah – didn’t see anything from FRANCE yet. what a surprise…

as for an international response? that’s code-word for “the United States.”

pullingmyhairout on October 9, 2006 at 10:59 AM

This goes nicely with your video clip.

Mr. Bingley on October 9, 2006 at 11:13 AM

We might have Australia, Great Britain, and Japan on our side. That’s about it, but more than enough.

SouthernGent on October 9, 2006 at 11:19 AM

Maybe we should try talking to the North Koreans now??

GregH on October 9, 2006 at 11:39 AM

Gregh

That’s exactly the wrong thing to do, as the failure of the Clinton administration and halfbright so clearly have demonstrated.

You can’t negotiate with someone whose only objective is to extortion.

Grow a pair. Weakness is provocative, and negotiations with people you can have no hope of good faith is weakness. That’s the path the dems would put us on. Talk, talk, talk. Just like the Useless Nations. These are times for unambiguous strength.

techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 11:48 AM

is to extortion

should be “is extortion.” PIMF

techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 11:50 AM

It is interesting to compare this North Korean “test” with the Pakistani tests in 1998. On May 30, 1998, a Pakistani test caused a seismic event of 4.3 on the Richter scale, and this is thought to have indicated a yield in the 2-8 kiloton range.

See this source:

Pakistani officials, like their Indian counterparts, seem to have exaggerated the number and size of the explosions, announcing the first day’s yield as 40-45 kilotons (including one test of 30-35 kilotons) and a yield of 15-18 kilotons for the sole test on May 30. Analysis of the seismic data does not support these claims. The average magnitude reported by the 65 stations recording the event on May 28 was 4.9, indicating an explosive yield in the 6-13 kiloton range. Fifty-one stations recorded the event on May 30, with an average magnitude of 4.3, indicating an explosion in the 2-8 kiloton range.

Can we therefore assume that the North Korean explosion was also 2-8 kilotons, but towards the lower end of the range given that the seismic event was somewhat smaller?

We may also note that there have indeed been conventional explosions as large and even larger than this.

Lehuster on October 9, 2006 at 11:52 AM

We’ve already “talked” to them mano a mano. Mzzz. Madeleine Al(not so)bright toasted with him her personal triumph. They took the treaty and used it for toilet paper. You can’t talk to or trust a communist…EVER!

SouthernGent on October 9, 2006 at 11:54 AM

It is interesting to compare this to the Pakistani test on May 30, 1998 – not least because the two tests may involve the same technology.

The Pakistani test caused a seismic event of magnitude 4.3, which some estimate was in the 2-8 kiloton range. That may tell us something about the yield of the North Korean device.

Pakistani officials, like their Indian counterparts, seem to have exaggerated the number and size of the explosions, announcing the first day’s yield as 40-45 kilotons (including one test of 30-35 kilotons) and a yield of 15-18 kilotons for the sole test on May 30. Analysis of the seismic data does not support these claims. The average magnitude reported by the 65 stations recording the event on May 28 was 4.9, indicating an explosive yield in the 6-13 kiloton range. Fifty-one stations recorded the event on May 30, with an average magnitude of 4.3, indicating an explosion in the 2-8 kiloton range.

Lehuster on October 9, 2006 at 11:55 AM

So we have Carter to blame for the weakness that’s directly led to the jihadi threat we now face, and Clinton for, among other things, the situation in north korea. Not to mention the loss of our national security secrets going to china.

How anybody could think that it would be a wise thing to put the democratic party in charge of this nation at this particular time is deluding themselves and refusing to look at the lessons of history.

techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 11:55 AM

Techno_barbarian, I was just about to make that point. I’m not happy with Republicans, but given the choice of them or Democrats being in power while the world goes to hell, I’ll take the Republicans as flawed as they are.

CT on October 9, 2006 at 12:00 PM

GregH, obviously you need reminding, too. Talking worked sooooooo well the first time around…

pullingmyhairout on October 9, 2006 at 12:24 PM

It continually amazes me that anybody, least of all Western heads of state, ever believe that buying off someone with “economic incentives” who is threatening to make nuclear weapons would ever work. Someone who says they’re going to make nukes is already going to make them… the only reason they’re telling the world is to see if the West will try to buy them off in the mean time.

If you were a dictator of a mud-hut country, would you just make nuclear weapons to bully your neighbors? Or would you make nuclear weapons and leech blackmail money out of the West? Easy answer…

Lehosh on October 9, 2006 at 12:28 PM

Here’s something you may not know: The outspoken Mayor of Tokyo (with a budget larger than that of many nations) has said, publicly, that Japan needs to re-think its alliance with America, because America does not prevent things like this (speaking several months ago), and that Japan needs a strong local partner.

China.

So don’t be so sure that Japanese nervousness about this translate into stronger US/Japan ties. Appeasement knows no borders. Literally.

haakondahl on October 9, 2006 at 12:42 PM

you were a dictator of a mud-hut country, would you just make nuclear weapons to bully your neighbors? Or would you make nuclear weapons and leech blackmail money out of the West? Easy answer…

Lehosh on October 9, 2006 at 12:28 PM

Well said. You make a very valid point.

pullingmyhairout on October 9, 2006 at 12:54 PM

Pakistani missle test would have been an Air or surface burst…

N. Korean test was subsurface… so all the energy goes into ground… which is also why we had no early confirmation of this… a surface blast would be seen from space…

Hmmm… have to dig out my old textbooks on nuclear physics… but… to reach critical mass for an explosion takes a certain amount of plutonium… in a certain restricted space… can you even create a nuc wep that small? Doesn’t seem like it would sustain the reaction needed…

Romeo13 on October 9, 2006 at 12:58 PM

Update: Hastert lunges at his chance to change the subject.

Test of which party is more concerned with our national security: Do the Dems think North Korea or a congressman having a gay affair with a 21-year-old is a bigger news event? We’ll see. I predict that by tomorrow the Dems and their MSM pals will have Foley be the lead story, showing exactly why we cannot trust them to keep our nation secure.

januarius on October 9, 2006 at 1:06 PM

If the yields truly was under a kiloton, I think it is unlikey that it was a nuclear bomb. You’d have to word hard to make one of that small of a yied.

Mike O on October 9, 2006 at 2:00 PM

Carter brokered the deal that got us to this point. Arguably, he is the worst president in American history. Irrefutably, the worst ex-president.

Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM

It’s definitely possible to make nuclear weapons with yields under 1kt, but it requires a level of expertise and knowledge the NK’s almost certainly do not have.

A few other things to consider:

Seismic events from explosions are much different than earthquakes and it’s difficult to confuse the two. Fault movement in earthquates, unlike explosions, are not point events, but rather occur along fault-lines that can be hundreds of miles long. The seismic event in question here is undoubtedly a point event.

Although it’s not certain, this “test” is looking more like a dud. I think a solely conventional explosion is unlikely – the NORKO’s wouldn’t claim to conduct a nuclear test then actually conduct a seemingly pointless HE explosion; knowing it would be discovered as a non-nuclear event.

Allah,

You won’t see any radiation information for a while, if at all. If the test was a dud, then no radiation escaped, so there is nothing to collect. If it was a successful test and the seismic data is innaccurate or wrong, then gas would still have to escape from underground (if the NK’s did their homework, this won’t happen) and then be collected by aircraft east of the peninsula. It will take time to collect and analyze that data and much depends on the weather and wind patterns.

Finally, expect another test. If this one was a dud, it’s likely the North Korean’s have another design or test weapon ready to go.

NPP on October 9, 2006 at 2:41 PM

On North Korea as in other national security policies, the Bush Administration and the Republican-controlled Congress have made America less secure.

It was Clinton’s policy that gave them nukes in the first place.

Christ, we gotta keep asshats like Reid in the minority. Do we really want clowns like him making critical decisions?

CT on October 9, 2006 at 3:06 PM

CT,

Um, no, Clinton did not give them nukes. What policy could Clinton have pursued, short of war, to prevent North Korea from getting them? That’s right, there is none.

The fact is that North Korea wanted nukes all along as well as the basic technology. There wasn’t much any administration could have done to stop this.

NPP on October 9, 2006 at 3:27 PM

GregH wrote: “Maybe we should try talking to the North Koreans now??”

How about we send you?

Need a ride to the airport, bub?

georgej on October 9, 2006 at 3:35 PM

It is my understanding that we are still working to confirm that the explosions were in fact nuclear.

Iran and NorK are trying their best to provoke 1) our country into an attack or 2) the American people into civil violence. If the explosions turn out to be a bluff, we can all give thanks for the restraint of the Bush Administration.

If it turns out the explosions were nuclear, well, Iranians were present at the July 4th North Korean missile test. North Korea had to test a nuke before Iran would take delivery and pay.

RushBaby on October 9, 2006 at 3:38 PM

A comment By AZPatriot on another thread makes a good point,
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/08/report-north-korea-tests-nuke/
that the Oct 8th nuke test might well have been the nuclear trigger that detonates ‘the big one’, the hydrogen fusion device. Proof of that conjecture would be a second nuke test in the megaton range. Absent that second megaton blast does not disproof the conjecture, however.

Without knowing the intent of the program, it would be impossible to know if these tests were ‘duds’, or were intentionally small devices, given the small quantity of plutonium available to North Korea, to prove the validity of the design. Multiple, small detonations could well signal a methodical approach to a sophisticated research and development program.

The most frightening aspect is not that North Korea has apparently developed a working design, but that North Korea would be willing to sell the engineering details to the highest bidder. As difficult as it would be to embargo shipments of hardware, it would be impossible to contain transfers of engineering blueprints.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-06/04/content_448644.htm

Obviously, nuclear non-proliferation is a dead horse, starting with Pakistan, then North Korea, and soon Iran having nuclear weapons.

Nti.org is a 501(c)3 organization founded by Ted Turner, Sam Nunn, and others, but this historical summary appears to be a reasonable representation.
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/NK/Nuclear/index.html

rockhauler on October 9, 2006 at 4:30 PM

Pakistani missle test would have been an Air or surface burst…

N. Korean test was subsurface…

No, the 1998 Pakistani tests were underground, just like the recent North Korean test.

Lehuster on October 9, 2006 at 4:44 PM

That estimate re: the potential artillery shelling of SK is pretty much unfathomable, but isn’t that absent the likelihood that we would be carpetbombing their artillery positions?

CP on October 9, 2006 at 4:51 PM

BOMB SHELTER: Best cellar.

Dr. Charles G. Waugh on October 9, 2006 at 5:09 PM

Rockhauler,

This was definitely not an unsuccessful boosted weapon. The NK’s won’t be able to make, much less test, boosted weapons until they have a working implosion design, which it appears they do not.

I mentioned before that it’s technically possible to make a fission device with a low yield (below 1kt), but it requires a technical capability the NK’s don’t have.

If this was indeed a dud, it probably means a failed implosion device. It makes me wonder why they wouldn’t use a much simpler gun device for an initial test. Perhaps that is yet to come.

CP,

Carpetbombing does little against artillery in bunkers. Precision strikes would be necessary, but there are so many targets that it would take a lot of time. This isn’t even considering the time needed to dismantle the air defense network to allow such strikes. By the time we got to the point in the target list where we can attack the emplaced artillery en-mass – well, let’s just say there would be a lot of rubble in Seoul.

NPP on October 9, 2006 at 5:10 PM

The Democrats should really question Kim Jong-Il’s timing.

I find it strange that he would pull a stunt like this that would help the Bush administration. If he lked working with a democratic administration then wouldn’t he have waite to test after the mid-terms? The Dems who worked so hard with Kim must really be peeved that he ruined their current smear of a gay-republican child molester and thrust national security to the front of the agenda agian. Where is the love? That quintessential moment of the toast with Madeline Albright now really seems like he was playing the dems for all they were worth. Could it actually be that Kim Jong-Il is really a sick man that doesn’t much care who is in power or who he bargains with? That would fly in the face of Harry Reid’s call for a different sort of negotiation or any sort of negotiation for that matter.

Dems: This is a wake up call. SICK REPUGNANT DICTATORS ACTUALLY EXIST!!!

Goes to show that there are some people for whom talk is truly cheap. Kim Jong-Il is one of those people. It is time to stop negotiating and show him that we are not a weak nation and that we are not crippled by our own ridiculous politics. Kim Jong-Il, by testing a nuclear weapon, has called us to arms and action. We need to respond in a meaningful way and I dont mean in a UN meaningful way…

Psycotte on October 9, 2006 at 5:27 PM

side note :Can we please get Post preview or spell check? Just saying….

Psycotte on October 9, 2006 at 5:29 PM

That estimate re: the potential artillery shelling of SK is pretty much unfathomable, but isn’t that absent the likelihood that we would be carpetbombing their artillery positions?

Precision boming them, yes, but they are dug into hardened sites in the sides of mountains, and it would take a while to eliminate them all. Seoul would eat thousands of shells in the meantime.

Lehuster on October 9, 2006 at 5:52 PM

The artillery alone could be devastating for South Korea. As William C. Triplett II noted in his 2004 book Rogue State, North Korea is capable of firing “between 300,000 and 500,000 artillery shells per hour on the Seoul metropolitan area.

This is all find and dandy but it does not answer the question of what we are capable on inflicting on them, logistally, militarily, and economicaly. They have no logistics or resoures for sustained combat. It’s not 1950 anymore. China would be forced to drop their Charade game with thier little pet cobra and resupply N.K. with logistics and supplies from their incredible network of underground tunnels created between China and N.K. over the past 55 years. These tunnels make the DMZ tunnels to South Korea look like worm holes.

Egfrow on October 9, 2006 at 6:37 PM

Heh. “No-Dong.”

frankj on October 9, 2006 at 7:11 PM

God, I hope that second event was a nuclear weapons test.

I don’t like the North Korean regime or its destabilizing influence in a region of the world where I plan on making my life and where the love of said life lives… but I do like the thought that their weapon design and engineering doesn’t work.

Two 0.5-2KT explosions is not what they were hoping for, methinks.

Another commentator said it best: The North Korean nuclear engineers are now officially the worst ever!

If true.

Christoph on October 9, 2006 at 7:37 PM

it does not answer the question of what we are capable on inflicting on them, logistally, militarily, and economicaly. They have no logistics or resoures for sustained combat. It’s not 1950 anymore.

If the goal is not sustained combat but to deter “casual” airstrikes on North Korea (to decapitate the regime or take out weapons programs) then the artillery is more than adequate for the task. It really constrains our options if there’s nothing between “all out war” and “do nothing”.

Lehuster on October 9, 2006 at 9:20 PM

NPP

This was definitely not an unsuccessful boosted weapon.

Ya wanna rephrase that and hit me with it again? I think I know what you meant . . .

The problem is, without knowing what the device was capable of, we can’t judge the success or failure based on seismic data. Without knowing the intent of the program, we can’t guess the intended capabilities of the device either.

Broadly speaking, the North Koreans wanted a big bang, and judging from the reaction of ‘the international community’, they got what they wanted.

rockhauler on October 9, 2006 at 9:36 PM

Ok, a bit ago on Hannity, Col. North spoke of the Clinton admin in 1994 making a deal to build 2 light water reactors for NK…!?! This was during the time me and the Mrs. were courtin’ an sparkin’-I knew I wasn’t paying close attention to anything else at that time, but DAMN!

Wedge Plissken on October 9, 2006 at 11:02 PM

Where would we be with N.K. (or Iraq, Iran etc?) if in the year 2000 we had said adios to the U.N.?

Would Kimmie be anywhere so brave without the knowledge that he could always count on the protection of the U.N. members who have shafted us every time N.K has escalated the nuke issue to critical? Without the U.N. would Kimmie even have any big friends to play games with?
Maybe China and Russia would have even ‘changed the situation’ by now.
Now we are faced with trying to prevent atomic weaponry from leaving N.K.

With the current diplomatic weenieism at the U.N. perhaps millions (billions?) could die in a cataclysmic nuclear chain reaction.

Disbanding the U.N. could save our lives.

Speakup on October 9, 2006 at 11:06 PM

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