Is Bush going to veto the border fence? Update: Bill not formally presented yet; Update: Mexico to take up fence with UN?
posted at 3:41 pm on October 9, 2006 by Allahpundit
Kaus explains it all to you.
Not that it matters. As previously reported, they’ve loaded up the appropriations bill with so many loopholes that they won’t have to build it even if he does sign.
In which case, why doesn’t he sign? Why would he do something as insanely antagonistic to his own base as torpedoing what’s already only a cosmetic gesture towards border security? It can’t be for Hispanic votes; the number of Republican voters he’d alienate by vetoing the bill would surely outnumber the Latino voters he’d pick up.
Captain Ed unpacks the legal nuances — in a nutshell, the current congressional recess is sufficiently short that the bill might be deemed passed, not vetoed, due to Bush’s inaction — but that’s besides the point. I’m with Derbyshire: if Bush insists on doing Mexico’s bidding again, if he can’t bring himself to endorse even a symbolic measure of border enforcement, then I hereby swear before the Hot Air readership that I’ll vote a straight Democratic ticket next month. I live in New York so it won’t matter, but one symbolic turn deserves another.
Update: Rob Port says this is the last day for Bush to sign before the pocket veto takes effect. Assuming that a pocket veto is what we’re dealing with here. Like I said, read Captain Ed for the nuance.
Update: Enough’s enough says the boss, who doesn’t want to say “I told you so” but…
Actually, I think she does want to say it.
Update: Patrick Ruffini says Bush will sign the bill. Yeah? When?
Update: Hold the phone. Has the bill been formally presented to Bush for signing yet? Reader Brian F. e-mails:
You will not see an announcement of a signing today. The bill has not been presented to the White House yet. The Constitution gives the President ten days to sign a bill after presentation. At Thomas.gov “presentation” is explained: “In actual practice, the Clerk, or the Secretary of the Senate when the bill originated in that body, delivers the original enrolled bill to a clerk at the White House and obtains a receipt. The fact of the delivery is then reported to the House by the Clerk. Delivery to a White House clerk has customarily been regarded as presentation to the President and as commencing the 10-day constitutional period for presidential action.”
As of three minutes ago, Thomas.gov reports the results for HR.6061 as “9/29/2006 Passed/agreed to in Senate. Status: Passed Senate without amendment by Yea-Nay Vote. 80 – 19. Record Vote Number: 262.” The bill has not been officially/legally “presented” to the White House so the ten day clock has not started. I suspect the President is waiting for a more politically opportune time to sign this, closer to the election.
I think he’s right. Here’s the page at Thomas for H.R. 5631, the appropriations bill that Bush has already signed. Formal presentation is noted on September 29. Compare and contrast with H.R. 6061, the Secure Fence Act. No presentation yet. I don’t think he’s on the clock yet.
Update: Does Mexico have the stones to refer the border fence to the United Nations? Let’s hope so. Nothing, but nothing, would undermine American support for the UN as much as that usurpation of national sovereignty would.
Update: Captain Ed confirms with a Hill staffer that the GOP has delayed presenting the fence bill for signature until later this month for maximum electoral effect.
So we’ll get our symbolic gesture towards border security after all. Victory!
Blowback
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Wow.
Tacos ‘n’ Taxes here we come.
infidel4life on October 9, 2006 at 1:48 PM
I’ll vote a straight Democratic ticket
Okay, but doesn’t that get taken as being even more anti-enforcement (and other things you don’t want to “vote” for, like lax counterterrorism, etc)?
I was thinking of writing in some names: John (of John and Ken) for Congress, Ken of (John and Ken) for Senate, Tom McClintock for Governor…
Alex K on October 9, 2006 at 1:48 PM
I don’t care. We go round and round in circles over this. If they can treat us like shit with no fear of electoral repercussions, then they’ll go on treating us like shit forever. You have to draw the line somewhere.
Allahpundit on October 9, 2006 at 1:51 PM
Same here – and I’ll probably hold my nose while doing so.
I got a fundraising call from the RNC last week, asking me for a minimum $250.00 donation to help fight the left in November’s mid-terms. I explained to the caller that since I felt betrayed by the Republican Party by their uncontrolled growth of government, obvious lack of concern for border security and uncontrolled government spending that I was no longer considering myself a member of the Republic party. I also asked that my name & number be removed from their calling database.
I’m a conservative – and that’s it.
Corky on October 9, 2006 at 1:57 PM
I’m with you Allah to the extent that I will vote third party where applicable or not vote at all in a race. Bush is one stubborn SOB who refuses to say “nuclear” properly, and nation builds with our military in the best tradition of Democrats. He is not an idiot, just a recalcitrant fool who would stick it to the base in a second.
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 1:58 PM
In ’08 , Vote for Tancredo, write him in if need be. For now, dont throw the baby out with the bath water. We can’t vote dem across the board, it would just give too much power to the wrong side, the Monologue-ist Left.
Think about it. I will NOT surrender to the enemy with-in. Its way too scary for me.
Pelosi would just go have drinks with Kim ‘mentally’ Il and she’d probably invite Iran President I’mamadjihad too.
shooter on October 9, 2006 at 2:00 PM
I’ve been another one of those who kept saying “But the Democrats would be worse”.
The only question I’ve got to ask anyone who starts telling me that at this point is this: “In what way???”
My taxes might go up.
Other that that, I’m having a lot of trouble seeing any notable difference that would make me prefer one party over the other.
jefferson101 on October 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM
I can’t go the route of voting a straight Democratic ticket because the folks from my district that are serving in Congress are Republican and are doing a good job. Don’t give me the yeah yeah nonsense either. We have Saxby Chambliss and Johnny Isakson in the Senate and my Rep is Phil Gringrey. In cases where I think the Republican running for office on any state or local position I will vote for the Independent candidate or Libertarian candidate. Sure it is wasting a vote but to the bean counters in the Republican party they need to look at the total number of votes cast for candidates to national offices versus those cast for candidates in purely local races.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM
That’s productive.
I know you guys all would like to “send a message”, but this isn’t the only issue and on all issues the Dems are either the same or worse. Maybe you don’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils, but these protest votes assume that we’ll have the opportunity to vote in reformed GOPers next time around. Just look at what the media has done to public opinion and people’s understand of virtually every issue and multiple that times 10. They’re going to feel victorious if they get Dems in this round and they’ll put on the full court press, being even more vicious and dishonest than they’ve been in recent years. The “new media” may have an impact, but the establishment liberal elite media still sets the tone for the majority.
RightWinged on October 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM
I sent this link to Mr. Drudge and asked him to feature it prominently and expose the Bush clan on this issue, or hold their feet to the fire, top of the page.
The Pelosi-Reid team will pass an unencumbered amnesty bill, which President Bush would sign with fanfare, even though the dems would get all the credit.
Who deserves my vote? The Dems and Reps sure don’t and a viable 3rd party doesn’t exist…
This morning I passed this scene in Escondido, California -
at a street corner American citizens had placards which read:
- “illegal labor cheapens our wages”, and
- “deportation? si se puede”
Immediately behind them, what appeared to be illegal aliens were taking care of the gas-station grounds, happily ignoring the protesters…
Entelechy on October 9, 2006 at 2:01 PM
The Democrats might be better in some ways because they’ve got something to prove. Just like how Nixon could go to China but not LBJ lest he be accused of Communist sympathies, it may be that a Democratic Congress or President would want to take an unusually tough line — at least at first — on terrorism to show the public they’ve got the chops for hardball.
Allahpundit on October 9, 2006 at 2:03 PM
Yes, it is productive. It’s the only way they’re going to stop behaving like such arrogant sons of bitches. Don’t want to listen to your constituents? Fine. Let’s see what Pelosi can do.
Allahpundit on October 9, 2006 at 2:04 PM
The main reason I don’t want the Dems taking control of Congress is because for so long we have listened to their whining and blocking legislation and if they get a whiff of control they will continue the whining and shoving forth legislation, which now the Republicans will have to block, but there is not one doubt in my mind that they will pass resolution after resolution condemming Bush and in very short order begin impeachment hearings. It doesn’t matter that the impeachment itself doesn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of suceeding but like everything else to the Dems it is all about appearance. Republicans could no longer slam Clinton since Bush would now have the same thing happen to him.
Can’t vote Dem since I view them as the American Communist Party anyway. 3rd party candidates however are different.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 2:09 PM
I feel the same as Allah but at the same time I wonder if it will take another 40 or more years for Republicans to regain power. The Dims will give these people blanket amnesty asap. I am fed up with President Bush on this issue as well as the out of control spending but I am happy with his stand on terror. Is it enough to keep me in the tent, well I am tempted not to send back my absentee ballot (not sure they’re ever counted anyway?!) but the alternative is worse. However, why we can’t have a third party is beyond me. I would bolt from the Republican party if a viable alternative was before me.
Catie96706 on October 9, 2006 at 2:09 PM
Congress is in recess so if Bush does nothing, the pocket veto kicks in tomorrow. At least he could be a man and veto it outright. George “McClellan” Bush rides again!
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 2:13 PM
Bare in mind that there’s no way any enforcement actually happens until January 2009 at the earliest, because Bush will never do it, whatever legislation passed or didn’t pass. So in that respect it doesn’t matter which party is in Congress–or apparently the Republicans are worse because they can more easily con their base into thinking they’re doing something.
The only concern is an amnesty passing in the next two years. An immigration increase (“guest worker”) can be reversed but a Democratic congress and Bush might pass an amnesty together. Maybe someone can filibuster…
Alex K on October 9, 2006 at 2:15 PM
“BEAR” in mind. :)
Alex K on October 9, 2006 at 2:16 PM
Or fence! ;)
SouthernGent on October 9, 2006 at 2:16 PM
Correction- Sundays are excepted so the effective date is Wed., Oct 11.
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 2:16 PM
Totally true. Think about that. Bush sucks so brutally that we all accept the fact that he’s not going to build the fence; and yet we’re still debating whether we should vote GOP. We’ve now sunk so low that empty, meaningless symbolic gestures are enough to placate (some) of us. Pathetic.
Allahpundit on October 9, 2006 at 2:19 PM
I won’t go so far as to vote Dimwitocrat, but I’ll pull the trigger on the Libertarian vote across the board as best I can.
Pathetic, truly.
webproze on October 9, 2006 at 2:25 PM
On this whole border issue I have maintained 2 separate thoughts on the matter. The House seems to want to do what most Americans want mainly stop the flow of illegals across the border. The Senate on the other hand seems to be filled with a bunch of pre Alzheimer, senior citizens who have not a clue as to what is happening outside the confines of Washington D.C. Is it any wonder Senators don’t get elected to any higher office?
The other thing that really gets under my skin as far as national office holders is that it seems no matter what they say while seeking office and no matter how independenat they appear, once they get there it becomes a matter of either playing along with one of the 2 big dogs or simply be ignored. I want my elected officals to listen to the people who sent them there but alas they simply wind up listening to the leaders of their parties and the electorate be damned.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 2:32 PM
>The House seems to want to do what most Americans want mainly stop the flow of illegals across the border.
Not really. The House was part of last week’s loophole scam too. And the only reason they passed their enforcement bill last December was because of political pressure. Tancredo and maybe a couple other guys are the only ones who actually care unprompted.
Alex K on October 9, 2006 at 2:39 PM
In mob vernacular
Its all about the dollars.
Time to brush up on Bush’s North American Union.
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 2:39 PM
I have said it before and I’ll say it again. If the Federal Government does not close the border and do it effectively then STOP PAYING TAXES. If our “leaders”, regardless of affiliation, want to pay back corporate donors with cheap labor or want easy to get votes – all by giving away the country, then why fund it?
MikeG on October 9, 2006 at 2:41 PM
Priorities are very screwed up here….No, we can’t sign a Bill to build a fence, but, it’s friggin more of a concern people like me who bet on football game, will now be thrawted by a Bill making gambling online illegal, while my state of PA shoves slot machines and lottery tickets up my ass. Hey Washington, do something useful, build the friggin fence! But I’d be sure to bet allot of $$$$ that Bill aint gonna happen!
soulsirkus on October 9, 2006 at 2:45 PM
I’ll be damned if I help our enemies elect the feckless and ineffective liberals into power.
The GOP definitely has problems, prime among them the progressive jellification(tm) of the spine. But to put into power the current far left ‘leadership’ is insanity.
So while we do our enemy’s bidding and tear ourselves apart, nasty things slip across borders and settle themselves into place for future attacks.
Do you really think the dems will do anything at all about the border, other than to open it even further?
techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 2:46 PM
The time for protest votes is during the primaries where you can boot out the sitting Republican for a better option.
Voting Democrat in the mid-term will only make matters worse and those who don’t agree with that have forgotten the extreme insanity of those who would be in power.
We’re talking Nancy Pelosi, John Murtha, John Kerry, Al Sharpton, Ned Lamont, Ted kennedy, Al Gore, and Jesse Jackson.
And don’t forget that the power would not stop there. You would be handing our government over to the likes of Barbra Streisand, Michael Moore, and George Soros.
You think the Minutemen had a tough time speaking at Columbia last week? They won’t be allowed in the door if Democrats take over. You think our Universities are out of control now? You haven’t seen anything yet.
This group is likely to come up with new laws allowing them to censor the internet and shut down blogs such as this one – along with Fox News. If you think it’s the right way to go … you’re simply not paying attention to who’s leading the Democratic party.
We have a serious problem and it’s going to get even worse if we are unable to get conservatives to stop this nonsensical protest vote, or “non-vote.” We need to shut the Democrats down in the mid-terms, and then clean our own house during the next primaries.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 2:51 PM
There won’t be many conservatives opposed to the new democrat house leaders initiating impeachment proceedings if Bush continues to thumb his nose at border enforcement.
Do we know where Cheney stands on border security?
MRegine on October 9, 2006 at 2:53 PM
The Minutemen have the right idea. If the government is not going to solve the problem, take the solution into your own hands.
Perhaps we should convince disgruntled Republicans to contribute private funds for fence construction instead of GOP contributions? It would eliminate all the bureaucratic red tape and get the fence built quicker and cheaper.
natesnake on October 9, 2006 at 2:55 PM
I switched to Independent. Let the GOP watch their taken for granted base dwindle as they fiddle. If enough people do that maybe they will start behaving as if we matter. The only thing you are giving up is the ability to vote in the primaries (as if that really matters)
America1st on October 9, 2006 at 2:55 PM
Gregor
Well said! You are exactly correct.
The dems will do everything in their power to complete the job of squelching our Conservative voices. The will do what they did in the Viet Nam conflict (which we were winning at the time, but the MSM and dem leadership systematically turned public opinion against… sound familiar?) and kill the funding for the ongoing efforts in Iraq.
You cannot win by losing. Damn, that should be so obvious. Some of you sound more like defeatist democrats every day. And that concerns me greatly.
Divide and conquer works, unfortunately. And it sure seems to be working here.
Rather than strategizing to help bring about an utterly crushing defeat for the democrats, which would force them to tear themselves apart and hopefully become a LOYAL opposition party once more, we’re gazing at our own navels and flogging ourselves, and organizing and promoting our own defeat.
This election is about so much more that the damned border fence. I want the borders fixed too, believe me. But we don’t have time to come from behind if we hand this election to the dems.
techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 3:04 PM
Well I guess it is a good thing they passed that whole transparency in goverment thing so we can see where the money is going. What it isn’t really transparency? You mean if it ain’t called an earmark you don’t have to reveal who put pork into a bill?
I think this border bill will put it into the “Fool me once, shame on me; Fool me twice, shame on you” category.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 3:07 PM
Tough. Shit. That’s not my problem; that’s Bush’s goddamned problem for not signing the fence bill, isn’t it?
If it’s so crucially important that the Democrats don’t retake Congress then why is this jackass doing everything he can do to make it happen?
Allahpundit on October 9, 2006 at 3:08 PM
Yep, the ONLY thing the GOP has going for them in the next couple elections is that they are NOT liberal democrats.
Will that be enough to carry the elections, time will tell I guess. They still don’t seem to comprehend that they were NOT voted in just because the people wanted more liberals with the word “republican” next to their name when they are on TV.
NRA4Freedom on October 9, 2006 at 3:11 PM
As if that matters? The primaries is what gives us the opportunity to correct this nonsense!
As for natesnake’s comment …
What do you think the previously mentioned leaders of the Democratic party will have to say about that if they are in charge? They will quickly rule the Minutemen a vigilante group and shut them down and they will find legal ways of preventing any public group from building a fence. Do you really think Nancy Pelosi is going to let a group of conservatives build a fence along the border?
I’m beginning to think we’re truly doomed – not by Bush’s actions – but by our own voters who think it’s more important to “make a statement” then to put people in power who share our views.
“Making a statement” is what liberals do. They tie ribbons around trees. They hold candles. They tie themselves to trees.
You’re not going to gain power by giving it to the enemy.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 3:14 PM
Not your problem? It’s not your problem to have Murtha and Kerry running your government while Iran and N. Korea are creating nukes? How is it Bush’s problem? The Democrats you want to put in power are certainly not going to stop Bush from doing any of the things you’re complaining about. Are they going to sign the fence bill?
The only problem they’re going to create for Bush is on National Security and defense … and I think you’ll agree that might be YOUR problem.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 3:21 PM
Sometimes you just have got to let’em screw up!
Allah, arrogant sons of bitches is absolutely correct.
Our government for the most part is listening us only so far as we can see them in public. When we can’t see them, our electives are on their on agenda and giving us the shaft.
There’s really only a handful worth saving.
For the rest, get the tar and feathers and ride’em out of town on a rail.
Politicians have become an institution, insulated from those who vote for them, which is the opposite of what was intended.
Party against party creates a competition for who has the most power, further isolating citizens from the governing process.
The reason no other viable party exists is the giant gap created by party power mongering versus individual ideology.
Its mob rule instead of individual morality. The exact opposite and is exactly as was feared from the beginning.
The government is to powerful and that power has been stolen from it’s rightful owner…us.
Speakup on October 9, 2006 at 3:22 PM
There won’t be no fence under Democratic rule guarunteed. There are all those enviromental studies to be done, impact on wildlife, and since Kennedy doesn’t want windmills spoiling the view out his mansion in Hyannis Port you can be sure they don’t want no ugly fence out there where people cansee it. Besides Israel has a fence and what good has it done? Well besides reducing suicide bomber attacks to almost zero.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 3:24 PM
There won’t be a new fence under Republican rule either, until there’s a new Republican president–and not even then, if they’re not taking this issue seriously in the ’08 primaries. And why would they take the issue seriously if they can pull this crap and still be “better than the Democrats”?
Alex K on October 9, 2006 at 3:26 PM
Gregor
That is the problem. Those in Washington don’t share our views. If they did it seems that as soon as they get inside the Beltway and pass through that huge brain sucking, common sense removing, force field that surrounds that town they become just another lemming more concerned about how the headlines in next edition of the NY Times says then in what the folks back home say.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 3:27 PM
There is no way in hell I would vote for the democrats in their current state. But I could be persuaded to withhold my vote for Republicans if Bush commits this incredibly stupid blunder.
Sometimes you’ve gotta destroy the village to save it. This may be such a time.
thirteen28 on October 9, 2006 at 3:30 PM
I’m going to learn spanish.
PRCalDude on October 9, 2006 at 3:32 PM
I agree totally and that’s why we use the primaries to get ourselves a new Republican representative.
Look, here’s the reality. Putting Democrats in charge is simply not going to solve any of the issues we’re worried about. Not one of you can say that putting Democrats in charge will make things better. They will only make them worse and at the same time … make it more difficult for us to correct the problem.
The only way to solve this is to do what the liberals did to Joe Lieberman and handle it within your own party. It’s two years. In two years all these morons could be gone. Suck it up!
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 3:35 PM
I am sick of immigration, whaahhhhh! All the time, everyday bitching about the Mexican border. For the last time, you cannot fence the Rio Grande river in Texas, the lifeline of South Texas. This is just a ridiculous salve for an overwrought base, period. Last time I checked, this country was at full employment and still the demand for workers is high.
Half of illegal immigration is from people overstaying their visas. You going to fence the State Department. Wait, that would be a better idea than a fence on a river that would not work. If I lived on the border, I would cut a hole so my cows don’t die.
Fence up California, Texas will be fine without the whining from Republicans who leave the party every other day.
I am a two issue voter: Terrorism and Tax Cuts.
Immigration is the most trumped up issue, by people who seem to freak out over every little thing. Until the rhetoric heats up on the other half of the illegal immigration, ie Visas, then I am done with it.
Bloggers like to throw their fits, and the blogging lemmings go right along with it. I will be voting for my Reps, because I like them, and they are Texan, not RINOs.
Yeah, this pisses me off. A fence is stupid and expensive. Have you tried fencing off a river that belongs to Mexico and the US? Can’t be done.
Stormy70 on October 9, 2006 at 3:36 PM
Luckily I have hispanic heritage so will be part of the new majority. Liberals will eventually learn that mainstreamed hispanics lean conservative, then you’ll hear the cries to stop the border leaks.
MRegine on October 9, 2006 at 3:36 PM
thirteen28
Wha? Sorry, but a destroyed village doesn’t have much chance of defending itself from all too eager enemies, now does it? How could that possibly be helpful? It just makes it easier to make America a quaint little historical footnote. Just as our enemies are salivating for.
Where the hell are all the Can Do Americans? Our ancestors would kick our asses and be utterly ashamed of us.
techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 3:38 PM
If we vote Dem or don’t vote at all the Republicans will think the bas is getting more liberal, and will continue down this wishy-washy, moderate-liberal path.
Go and vote, but vote MORE CONSERVATIVE if you have that option. Don’t give the liberals power by giving the Republican leadership the false impression that their base is turning libtard-that will work to make the Republicans even MORE libtardish than they already are in hopes of recapturing voters.
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 3:38 PM
And, what, 20 million more 3rd world leeches?
SouthernGent on October 9, 2006 at 3:40 PM
NTWR … that is a fantastic point and exactly right!
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 3:42 PM
techno, to clarify, by “the village” I mean the republican party, and more particularly, their status as a natural majority party. If the only thing that will get them to pull their heads out of their collective asses is to lose their majority for the next two years, then so be it.
thirteen28 on October 9, 2006 at 3:43 PM
SouthernGent …
Are you telling us that by voting Democrat … they’re going to STOP those 20 million leeches? It’s more likely that the 20 million will become 40 million.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 3:44 PM
Where the hell are all the Can Do Americans? Our ancestors would kick our asses and be utterly ashamed of us.
techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 3:38 PM
I saw a bunch of them yesterday at the Merle Haggard concert I went to. I got chills when he sang-” Stop rolling downhill like a snowball headed for hell- STAND UP for the Flag and let’s all ring the Liberty Bell!” and everyone stood up and sang along.
The other highlight was when everyone did the same as he was singing “if you’re running down our country you’re walking on the fightin’ side of me.”
You could see the liberals cringing in the crowd.
A great concert, especially for a 69 year old. Gotta love the Hag.
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 3:46 PM
I don’t know any 3rd world leeches, but I know some American leeches. Leeches are leeches. The people are here for jobs. Have you picketed the Visa offices?
Sitting out the election is a childish play. Guarantees I won’t take you seriously. Bush ran on all of this in his campaign, yet many of you are surprised by it when he does what he campaigned on. The Stupid Party is in effect. Woo woo.
Stormy70 on October 9, 2006 at 3:47 PM
I can’t believe you are this pissed that Bush may be reluctant to waste a couple of billion dollars on symbolic gestures. It is the first sign of fiscal responsibility he has shown, as near as I can tell. I am more inclined to not vote for him because he won’t follow through with it by putting pressure on the left to cut off the welfare enticements that are drawing alot of the illegals over here.
I dunno, I just like the idea of solving the problem and saving money at the same time.
B Moe on October 9, 2006 at 3:49 PM
Stormy 70
Imagine what would happen to salaries if we stopped the flood of illegals. I would rather have tax paying employees who spend their “disposable” income here in the good ‘ol US of A instead of sending south to Mexico. It would also do away with that red herring scare tactic of raising the minimum wage. I have a teenager who makes more then minimum wage and already is questioning why that is such an issue and how pathetic a person are you if all you can get a minimum wage job.
Objection, no facts to support that statement.
Without border security and enforcement you will get one those but not the other. I will leave it up to you to figure out which is which.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 3:49 PM
This looks like a good place for that Matrix quote again, but I’m too depressed to say it.
Sitting this election out, or voting Dimocrat just seems like giving up to me. I thought Michelle and Allah were fighters. Sorry, guys, but I’m willing to vote GOP this time and just keep fighting, than giving it all over to the Libs.
Border problems or no border problems, we’ve got MUCH bigger fish to fry – you remember those Islamonazis that want us dead??
PRCalDude said he was gonna go learn Spanish. Screw that, you might as well just go study the Koran and prepare for Islamo-domination. Cause this squabbling over the Mexican border (which I want closed as much as you guys do) is only going to serve our enemies….resulting in our deaths.
Hmmm…slapping around a few REELECTED GOP buggers…OR death by Islamofascists… I’m for the slapping!!
tickleddragon on October 9, 2006 at 3:51 PM
I’ve noticed the same thing: that assimilated Hispanics tend to be conservative, which could backfire on the Dems. However, the public schools and universities are trying their best to not assimilate Hispanics, by means of bilingual education and multiculturalism.
However, this is a national security issue: How many Al Qaeda members are posing as Hispanics and sneaking across the border? How many agents of Chavez are doing the same?
I agree with others: If the White House is so arrogant about the border that they would try to sneak a pocket veto and Tom Davis and George Allen won’t call them on it, I’ll sit out the election.
I suspect, too, that the White House won’t do anything to North Korea short of asking for sanctions they know they won’t get. If they won’t govern as conservatives, conservatives are going to stay home.
januarius on October 9, 2006 at 3:52 PM
Yeah? When?
Probably around midnight.
With no cameras around.
Slublog on October 9, 2006 at 4:01 PM
Just to keep things isperspective historically, if Nixon/Ford hadn’t been such a disaster, then Carter wouldn’t have been elected, thus setting the stage for eight years of Reagan.
If the repubs lose badly this election, it will achieve two things to start- A.) The much needed look in the mirror for the so-called conservative party, and B.) such irresponsible government with people like Murtha and Pelosi that the country will be begging that the Repubs take over again in 2008.
A bitter pill, but jeebus I can’t tell the difference between the parties right now. From the immigration disaster to the ridiculous online gambling legislation, I can’t imagine a less conservative party than what the Repubs claim to be today.
Let’s just hope that by 2008 it’s not too late.
Tman on October 9, 2006 at 4:03 PM
For you “cut off your nose to spite your face” “conservatives,” have you REALLY been watching what the Democrats are trying to do illegal immigration?
Talk about Open Borders!
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 4:03 PM
Drat! I closed those tags!
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 4:06 PM
so it comes down to this -
if the Democrats win this November, this country loses
if the Republicans win this November, this country still might lose.
Starblazer on October 9, 2006 at 4:07 PM
thirteen
That is exactly the way I took it. And it doesn’t change the points I’ve been trying to make at all. We can’t win by destroying ourselves. Doesn’t make any sense. We can not eat our own and survive.
techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 4:07 PM
Stormy70
Your post on this forum is the most ignorant post I have ever read on HotAir.
How many Illegals do you employ?
Do you care that this country is being invaded by Mexicans at a rate of around 10,000 people a day?
Welcome to the North American Union. After reading your missive, you have hoisted the white flag of surrender.
Disgusting
Tancredo for President 2008
ScottyDog on October 9, 2006 at 4:08 PM
My folks almost went bankrupt during the Carter years due to the double-digit interest rates on mortgages, etc. Many problems (the Welfare state, the systems that draw illegals here…) that still plague this country are remnants from Carter. Not to mention that he won’t just go away and stop certifying things like Hugo Chavez’s fixed election… Carter is like a bad, lingering fart.
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 4:12 PM
Well if the Republicans do lose control of one or both houses I am torn between wanting them act likes Dems, meaning using every underhanded rule in the book to block legislation or just going along for the ride. I do feel pretty certain that one of the first things the Dems would do in between repealing tax cuts, and trying to impeach Bush will be to get rid of that rule that Kennedy got put into the book requiring 60 votes to bring anything up for a vote. That piece of legal wrangling has probably done the most harm to the Repubs in trying to get anything passed. Ever since that passed it was not good enough to simply have a majority, you needed a majority plus.
Oh well all I can do is sit back and watch and if the Dems win stock up on guns and ammo before they actually take control. It will make Christmas shopping easier.
LakeRuins on October 9, 2006 at 4:13 PM
The Dems will no doubt pass open borders and amnesty with Bush signing on. However, it will be in the light of day instead of Bush’s incremental approach. The situation will become politically actionable at that point, whereas there is nothing that can be done now with the current GOP in control.
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 4:13 PM
So Bush will be signing this, sounds like the blogs jumping to conclusions. Again. Once again, the 24 hour rule might be something some of you might look into, before going off on Bush. Again. It is tiresome when the party of Strength looks like the party of jumping beans, overreacting to every little blog post. Good grief.
I live in Texas and the illegals are making more than minimum wage for good reason. They actually work. I am glad they are sending money back to their countries, a rising tide lifts all boats. Immigration is an issue that has never gone away in 200 years (see illegal Chinese labor in the 1800s) and it never will.
The fence on a river is stupid. Get back to me if you have a way of not cutting off South Texas’ water supply. My relatives on the border are rolling their eyes at this fence idea. And no, they are not Hispanic, and they are in law enforcement.
Stormy70 on October 9, 2006 at 4:17 PM
Tman
You hope. The way that things are going right now, I AM looking in the Conservative mirror. Right now. And I do not like what I’m seeing.
NTWR
You’ve hit it right on the head. Exactly right.
techno_barbarian on October 9, 2006 at 4:17 PM
That makes about as much sense as burning down the barn to get rid of the rats. I hope all you neo-dhimmicrats have your Qurans and prayer rugs ready. As for me, I’m stockpiling ammo.
RedWinged Blackbird on October 9, 2006 at 4:24 PM
Stormy, go to the Kaus link above and look at Bush’s language in the CNN interview. It is the statement the White House is now using to placate us Paleo-Cons. I don’t see in the Slick Williesque rhetoric where he intends to sign this bill.
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 4:24 PM
From Human Events via Numbers USA:
If we cut-off welfare for the able-bodied while closing the border via enforcement and employee ID systems, and a fence-for good measure, OUR workers will end up making more than minimum wage, OUR deficit will decrease, and Mexico will have the revolution that is ONLY being staved off by the fact that digruntled Mexican nationals can illegally make ends meet on OUR backs.
For those that say mainstream Mexicans lean conservative and will vote that way up here: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? WHY IS MEXICO SO F-D UP THEN? No comprende…
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 4:27 PM
You mean people in South Texas are third world citizens? They get their water in buckets from the river?
If your relatives are in law enforcement in South Texas and they have your attitude about illegal immigration, perhaps they ought to get into another profession. What else illegal do they tolerate?
As for the “fence is not possible on a river” nonsense, I’ve seen plenty of fences on beaches in South Korea near the DMZ. If you can put a fence on a beach, why not a river?
januarius on October 9, 2006 at 4:30 PM
What the hell is Christmas???? It won’t exist anymore. At least, not in public.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 4:46 PM
Look cows mosey on up to the water and drink it, as do other Texas wildlife. Do you suggest we have to commit more money to create new places for them to drink? The fence won’t work, men on the border do. Simple. I am for more border patrol, more of a virtual fence than a physical fence. The deficit is not that high a percentage of our ecomomy. Reagan taught me not to care about deficits, and I don’t. Tax cuts take care of deficits.
I have an easy platform to maintain. Terrorism and Tax Cuts.
Stormy70 on October 9, 2006 at 4:47 PM
Last time I said what AP said, I caught a lot of heat for it. BTW, I was a Republican when I said that. Already I have switched to Independent, and that’s after 38 years as a Republican.
I don’t know if I can bring myself to actually vote Democrat. It might be easier just to stay home. I really don’t need to vote Democrat, since 2 activist 9th circuit/circus judges decided anyone, Arizonan or not, US citizen or not, may vote in an Arizona election. So now we have a good number of illegals who will vote even if the ID provision gets reinstated; now that they’ve registered, they simply get to vote by mail so the ID issue doesn’t come up for them. Watch for the Dems to win handily in AZ in Nov.
ChelleFiche on October 9, 2006 at 4:48 PM
Well AP, if the border was the only issue facing this country I would be right beside you on this. Bush has sold us out to Mexico; that is a fact.
However, border security is not the only issue. We still have troops in the Middle East. How does your vote support them? It doesn’t. By helping the Democrats you hurt our troops and their efforts. Rangel has already promised to cut funding if the Dems win…. and if they do win and start hearings and impeachments; I will have people like you to thank for it.
Are you going to be responsible for your vote regardless of what fresh Hell you help unleash on this country? You won’t. When the time comes in about a year or so, you’ll make the excuse that you were just sending a message because of the border problem.
I repeat, there is more at stake in this election than the border. Emotional tunnel vision will not help this country right now. By voting Democrat in this election you help the enemy within. I hope you re-think what you are doing.
You didn’t post this to pat yourself on the back. You know full well that your writing here could and will influence others to vote like you are because they trust you. You posted this with the intent that others would follow suit and help you send a message to Republicans. I find that pathetic and wonder now if you just needed an excuse.
When push came to shove; you fell down. Ever heard of a primary? If you wanted bad Republicans out, you would have been screaming for us to vote in good one’s during the primaries. So you are choosing now to vote Democrat and sell out the country to fascists instead of Mexicans.
Please re-think your decision.
Cary on October 9, 2006 at 4:58 PM
I need to correct the false impression I gave. The judges didn’t actually rule that any non-citizen may vote; they simply struck down the provisions that voters be required to show ID at the polls, and that voters prove citizenship (either US or Arizona) at the time of registration.
The result is exactly the same.
ChelleFiche on October 9, 2006 at 5:01 PM
I’ve studied the Koran. My options when they take over will be:
1. Recite the shahada and become a Muslim.
2. (Slow death) Pay the jizya.
3. Fight to the death (or just die).
If it ever gets to that point, I’ll take 3. Since jihad is a much stronger force than Mexican nationalism, you’re right. Oh well. California’s lost.
PRCalDude on October 9, 2006 at 5:03 PM
BDS here I come.
PRCalDude on October 9, 2006 at 5:06 PM
techno,
But just at what point do we conservatives assert ourselves and stop being the battered wives of the Republican party? Why is it that we are the ones that always have to grin and bear it while the “moderates” (read: liberals) in the Republican party get their way on lax immigration enforcement, spending, education, campaign finance, and so forth?
And please tell me, if immigration is the issue, what is the difference between the approach of the non-enforcement Republicans and the Democrats?
When you tell me how we can actually solve this issue and get the Republican party to actually respect the conservatives it relies on to win, then I will listen to you. But to continue to vote for the same old, same old while the conservative agenda remains stalled (and while Bush tells the base to effectively f— off on the immigration issue) is not going to cut it at this point.
thirteen28 on October 9, 2006 at 5:12 PM
When the Republican fundaraisers for the RNC call for money, I tell them that the money I would have given to them went directly to a very conservative runner who believes in my values (at the moment, Dick Mountjoy for Senate). It usually shuts them up but if they ask for money anyway, I unload on them for why I only give to individual candidates and not the RNC.
This, like attrition through enforcement, will work to correct our leadership if enough of us are consistent with it.
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 5:32 PM
We are so friggin screwed!
I was absolutely positive that we were on the verge of watching the Democratic party implode. There was no doubt in my mind up until the last few hours of reading this thread . I was sure that with a loss in these mid-terms – the Democratic Party would crumble to a point of non-existence. We were about to bury them six feet under and cover the hole with eight feet of dirt, but instead I’m watching as our own voters decide to purposely bury our own party instead.
I’m really not getting it. I don’t see the logic. It’s not easy to gain the majority people! You may never get it back!
For some reason, a good number of conservatives believe that yelling “nah-nah, nah-nah, we-told-you-so” at Bush is going to somehow solve our problem.
It’s been pointed out accurately on this thread what kind of message this will send. You will be telling all the world that Americans were sick of strong defense, sick of conservative issues, and sick of fighting back. You will be telling all the world that John Murtha was right! That Americans are cowards! Americans want out of Iraq NOW! Are you serious? Do you really think the world is going to look at a failed mid-term and say … they just wanted to stop illegals?
You will be handing our government over to Michael Moore, George Soros, Sean Penn, and Alec Baldwin. There will not be any future candidates bold enough (or stupid enough) to run on conservative principles. All future candidates will look back and say Americans were sick of all of it.
America and the world watched as Joe Lieberman was booted out of his party for being too right. They’ll now watch and say the conservatives were booted out for being too right. Do you really think the world, and future candidates will believe they were booted out because of illegals? Do you really think future candidates are going to move further RIGHT after conservatives are booted out of office and after the next two years are spent watching Pelosi and Kennedy screaming “we told you so?”
Go ahead. Give your government to Pelosi. Let the democrats control the next two or three Supreme Court nominations. Let them open the borders EVEN FURTHER THAN BUSH. Let them take away gun rights. Let them LEGALIZE SAME SEX MARRIAGES! Let them teach your kids homosexuality in school.
Unbelievable!
You all go right ahead. You all just stay home, don’t vote, and act like school children waddling your fingers in front of your nose and saying “nah-nah, nah-nah.”
I’m sure THAT’S exactly what this country needs.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 5:33 PM
Thirteen28:
PRIMARY!!!
PRIMARY!!!
PRIMARY!!!
You give yourselves better conservative candidates in the PRIMARIES!
You don’t give yourself more liberal candidates by voting liberal OR BY STAYING HOME and letting them win by default.
Is it really this tough?
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 5:42 PM
Gregor:
So you are of the opinion that Rudy Guliani or John McCain won’t foist those same things off onto us?
Right now, today, tell me how many actual Republicans, as opposed to Rinos, you think there are in the Senate anyway? A generous count, IMO, would be about 35, give or take a couple.
And in the House? Maybe 200. Maybe……
Why would you rather be tortured to death by a “death of 1000 cuts” than seeing it happen all at once? Given what we are dealing with on the supposedly Right side of the fence, both in Congress and in the White House, what good does it do to slow down the downhill slide? We’re still going to wind up in the same place.
I’m ready to declare a plague on both their Parties, and attempt to reform the Constitution Party into the 20th Century. (They’re still in the 19th, now….But the 20th I could probably live with.)
jefferson101 on October 9, 2006 at 5:45 PM
We only get true Constitutional conservatives after a rout of the commie Dems and RINOs.
Ford-Carter-Reagan
Bush41-Clinton-Gingrich’s short-lived revolution
Bush43-Pelosi et al.-???
The short-term price is painful but reversible. The cesspool of Washington becomes a hot tub for whoever is in charge long enough.
Valiant on October 9, 2006 at 5:49 PM
Jefferson101:
So you are of the opinion that Rudy Guliani or John McCain won’t foist those same things off onto us?
That’s exactly my point! What does it matter? Why would you vote for liberals to get the same thing, or WORSE! The most important thing for conservatives right now is to make sure we keep the majority and then we need to boot people like McCain out!
If there’s anyone in here who votes for McCain, you really have no right to even join this discussion as you are one of the problems.
We’re not going to solve our problem by rendering the conservatives we DO have powerless.
Conservatives SHOULD be more motivated this election than at any time in history, but we are going the wrong direction. Our party is in our own hands and we elect our officials in the primaries. There is no draft lottery that’s going to give us a bonus pick for losing. You lose … you LOSE!
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 5:53 PM
Err … does anyone realize the damage Carter did in four years??? How quickly we forget.
Gingrich???
I don’t recall Gingrich winning the election. He didn’t even get the nomination and he lost to a fake conservative.
I’m getting the feeling we have DailyKos plants in here posting this crap.
Gregor on October 9, 2006 at 6:00 PM
That’s it. I’m with Gregor- all of you who openly vote Democrat, or do it de-facto by staying home-you are all TRAITORS! Traitors to the conservative cause. Traitors to what you claim to stand for. Traitors to our troops. Defeatest, cut-and-run, wimps.
Next you’ll be banning me for saying anything negative.
Reap what you sow-libtards!
Go and grab defeat from the jaws of victory.
I’ll have fun being able to blame the likes of you for all the sh*t we have to deal with because of your short-sightedness.
What a joke.
NTWR on October 9, 2006 at 6:01 PM
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