Nice talking to you – it’s not for us to solve, but to be aware. Europe is in a big bind and for the most part the politicians are ‘hiding’ instead of trying to bridge some gaps and naming the issues for what they are. When they’re not hiding or pontificating in the name of PC and multiculturalism or propaganda, the rightists rise to placate the locals. It’s really a many-ringed circle or maze.

This is not a political statement but I truly believe that the U.S. is so far better off in all these domains.

Entelechy on September 18, 2006 at 3:20 PM

Right back at you. I sometimes think the Europeans are wiser and take a longer view; of course, I sometimes think their civilizations are crumbling. Either way is a lesson for us I guess.

Later.

It is extremely difficult to become a citizen or legal resident alien there. For the longest time the Germans only granted these privilages to people with germaninc heritage.
Of course, the Muslim population is averse to assimilate – it’s a ‘tango’ which doesn’t come off smooth.

Add to this, the fact that cheap labor is now aplenty from the former East bloc and Europe feels more comfortable with ‘their own’ (race, religions, culture, background, etc.) Then there is the fear of Turkey joining the EU and altering forever its character.

Politically, this then gives rise to the likes of Le Pen and Jörg Haider. In fact, the only reason Mr. Chirac won the last time, is because the French were so scared that Le Pen had won with such high percentages in the primaries, or the first round…

To your point on racism, it’s all there – they keep fairly quiet about it publicly but in private they don’t hide anything. They simply don’t like someone else altering their culture.

It is extremely difficult for everyone and in all likelihood will bring no good. Their Muslim groups are way more militant than ours and insist on installing their laws, in their not-even-adopted countries. Many are unemployed and live off the welfare of the state and the locals resent them even more for being so in their face about not learning/adopting the local languages, culture, rules, laws, etc.

Then there are the obvious issues/facts: the percentages you mentioned, the secularism of Europe, few or no children, decline of marriages by the Europeans, aging population with not enough to support the huge social services – thus, foreigners needed…we could go on and on.

Nice talking to you – it’s not for us to solve, but to be aware. Europe is in a big bind and for the most part the politicians are ‘hiding’ instead of trying to bridge some gaps and naming the issues for what they are. When they’re not hiding or pontificating in the name of PC and multiculturalism or propaganda, the rightists rise to placate the locals. It’s really a many-ringed circle or maze.

This is not a political statement but I truly believe that the U.S. is so far better off in all these domains.

honora, I travel to Europe a lot. They (all of Europe) are a lot more racist than we are, or at least we’ve overcome our prejudices, for the most part.

Ours is a much more diverse society, one which accepts the multitude of backgrounds and talents, of which we’re comprised as a people.

The elites in Europe believe in multiculturalism, in its idealistic form, and in extreme tolerance – to the point where they alienate the locals. The locals pretend to tolerate the ‘foreigners’ but it’s only skin deep. In reality they can’t stand them, they don’t mingle, mix, cohabitate.

I’ve been through squallers of neighborhoods in Brussels, London, Frankfurt, Paris – where you can’t get out of the car, out of fear to be killed. The hatred is mutual. Governments talk about integration but hardly anything ever happens, until the next flair-up, and the cycle repeats, the generations grow up on animosity, over and over…Both sides are at fault and it’s very complex to solve, if at all possible.

Entelechy on September 18, 2006 at 12:59 PM

I’ve spent a lot of time in Europe as well, except Scandinavia, and your observation on the homogenity of most Europeans countries makes sense. I also think that in a lot of cases–certainly Germany–the Muslim populations were/are largely guest workers. Is that right? If that is the case, there’s one issue there. Your comment re racism in Europe–well I can’t speak for people’s feelings, but it’s hard not to notice the rise of neo-Nazis.

There’s also the idea of critical mass–10% of France is now Muslim. Of course that’s significantly less than the Hispanic population in a number of US states.

Ours is a much more diverse society, one which accepts the multitude of backgrounds and talents, of which we’re comprised as a people.

The elites in Europe believe in multiculturalism, in its idealistic form, and in extreme tolerance – to the point where they alienate the locals. The locals pretend to tolerate the ‘foreigners’ but it’s only skin deep. In reality they can’t stand them, they don’t mingle, mix, cohabitate.

I’ve been through squallers of neighborhoods in Brussels, London, Frankfurt, Paris – where you can’t get out of the car, out of fear to be killed. The hatred is mutual. Governments talk about integration but hardly anything ever happens, until the next flair-up, and the cycle repeats, the generations grow up on animosity, over and over…Both sides are at fault and it’s very complex to solve, if at all possible.

georgej on September 16, 2006 at 5:14 PM

Well clearly the Muslims in America have been successfully assimilated into our country. (I am the master of the obvious). Which begs the question, why not in Europe? What makes it interesting is that Europe in general is far more secular than the US.

Christopher Hitchens, never one to miss a chance to slam the Church, has a very nasty article on this out today. This guy took one too many slaps on the knuckles from Sister Mary Mary. Or perhaps he needed more….

Two more cases of jihadists threatening free speech and countries have come up this week. First, there is the Islamic world’s violent (surprise surprise) reaction to Pope Benedict’s very courageous criticism of Islam. There’s more about the case her…

In the real world, the Pople continues apologizing for speaking the truth. As a show of goodwill, Islamists murder an Italian nun in Serbia. In the “I wish life were really like this” Marshall MacLuhan world, the Pope declares that……

It’s just shorter and more succinct. ;o)

Your point about Libs and pop culture is pretty sound in my estimation. History? Politics? Geography? Religion? These things are irrelevent compared to who Paris is hooking up with today.

Extrapolate those numbers to the current U.S. Islamic, CAIR-supporting population. Consider also that we’re about to allow tens of thousands of young, male Saudi students to attend our colleges. Colleges filled with malleable, liberal idiots who are predisposed to the Wahhabi “religion of peace” and think most of the world’s ills begin with Israel. A fair number of whom just took to the streets in support of Hezbollah. I think we’ll be seeing those riots here before too much longer.

Maybe we should just forget about W’s Plan A (liberate / democratize the mideast). Maybe it’s time to move on to Plan B. Perhaps it’s time to just get it over with. We tried to do it the Mr. Nice Guy way, now we gotta do it the hard way (hard for them, easy for us).

By repeating the stories coming out of the middle east about muslim so-called “offense” and riots over what the Pope said, they are simply being “Gramscian.” The Times is liberalism’s “opinion leader,” and has been so for a very long time. What they publish has a clear point of view, even in straight news. They are clearly trying to shape the opinions and attitudes of liberals towards Christianity.

So when the Times and the rest of the Left Stream Media run these stories, they are working towards Gramsci’s goal.

Point 2: The old “does as tree falling in the forest make a sound if notbody’s around” adage comes into play here. WITHOUT the Times and the rest of the 5th Column media, nobody would give a crap about their so-called “hurt feelings.”

These riots and protests are carefully organized and are aimed at intimidating the west. — knowing not only FULL WELL that the western media will carry it, but with delibeate intent to utilize the media as a communication channel to sell the west their brand of “protection racket.”

This protection racket is no different than the classic Mafioso brand — the threat is death over so-called “insults” unless you pay us off or do what we say.

The TARGET of this racket is America’s Muslim community, I believe.

An major uprising of Muslims in America would make fighting the war on terrorism nearly untenable. Certainly, it would distract us and maybe even force us to recall our troops from the middle east.

Point 3: The Muslim community isn’t buying it. We are NOT seeing the raging anger here in America. If it were happening, you better believe that the whores at CBSNBCABCPBSCNN would be devoting 90% of their airtime to (a) reporting that America’s cities are inflame over Muslim anger, and (b) George W. Bush and the Republicans are personally responsible.

I’m not sure WHY America’s Muslims are not falling for it, but I’m glad they are not. I am glad that they are behaving as Americans. As I noted in the other thread, “Pope to Muslims: Sorry if you’re offended Update: British Muslim papers threaten” they aren’t rioting here.

I believe that it is because they are AMERICANS before they are Muslims, the same as most of us.

It is accurate to say that for many Muslims jihad is a spiritual struggle, within one’s self, to do what God wishes. And we have absolutely no problem with those Muslims; we just more of them would speak out against the Islamofascists that have perve….

…

I look forward to when more and more in the west, especially in the United States, has less and less sensitivity to the Muslim’s anger at any percieved insult. I feel pity and sympathy for the citizens of the EU who do not have the courage, backbone, determination and wisdom to stand up to the Islamofacist as their culture is destoyed and distorted – and their freedoms are reduced.

We really are witnessing, and are a part of, the next world war – and it is a continuation of an age old conflict with Islam and the rest of the world. Our biggest weakness in this ongoing/coming conflict is our own left, the politically correct moonbat who depends on the courage and wisdom of others to maintain their freedom.

The Israeli’s know to deal with the Islamofacist – In their face on every issue, at every time, with overwhelming force – this is the only thing they relate to. Any attempts at “negotiation” with the Islamofacist are an illusion – anyone who is not Muslim is the “infidel” and it is condoned and encouraged to lie, steal, cheat and treat the “infidel” with complete contempt.

The Islamofacist attack on the Pope and Christians is going to wear thin quickly with many – and I look forward to a Western response of aggressive, direct, decisive confrontation with the Islamofacist on every issue, at every time, in every place.

Get used to this state of affairs, it is not going away and will continue with increasing frequency and intensity leading to armed conflict. The only reason we are not at war now is that the Islamofacist does not have the military, especially nuclear, forces and arsenal to even consider open warfare.

This is one of those, ‘I’m sorry that you’re crazy and are offended by everything’ apologies which seems more than appropriate in this case since, you know, the Pope was quoting someone else as part of an academic discussion. Pope……

We need to invent a new word – “hypocritical” just doesn’t cover it.

So the New York times thinks he should apologise? Really? Okay, he apologised..is it good enough? He spoke the truth and based on the reaction he got, he wasn’t off base in his observation! Where does the Times get the nerve to say such things? …