“Color me unsympathetic. That bloodshed is their fault, not ours. That killing is on their hands, not ours. And your lamentations of the horror of it are hollow and useless when they want to kill each other at every opportunity, and America is the only thing keeping that from happening.”

Subsunk: So we should “stay the course” to keep these bloodthirsty people from killing each other? And I may not have a clue about warfare, but I have a clue about not having the stones to admit when you’re wrong. My comment re the escalating violence was clearly re the Iraqi on Iraqi killing. You insist on ignoring that so you don’t have to admit your mistake. Shame on you.

honora on August 25, 2006 at 12:50 PM

You’re damn right we should stay the course. I won’t admit this policy is wrong. Because it is correct, or as close to correct as anything anyone has put out so far. My “stones” are completely intact, and are in evidence by the fact that, were I in charge, I wouldn’t quit fighting this war until Islam quit killing infidels, Iraqis stop killing their neighbors and them selves, and liberals quit supporting those who would rather kill them first.

You are known by the positions you support and the people you sympathize with. You support those who would kill you (that makes you the stupid one, not W), and me. You defy those who would protect you at all costs (that makes you unpatriotic), making their jobs harder with your whining restrictions, your illogical and spurious lawsuits, and your unfounded charges that everyone and everything “Rethuglican” is to blame for the mistakes made in the war and the world today.

I’ve seen life under the policies you espouse. I didn’t like it. My troops didn’t like it. And the Iraqis, Rwandans, Bosnians, French, Poles, Slavs, Czechs, Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos and all the races who lived under totalitarian oppression and tyranny didn’t like it either. It took over 40 years to defeat Communism’s expansion and oppression which killed over 200 million people in its 60+ year history. Is the war against Islamic Terrorism not worth the same efforts?

As for the problem of Iraqi vs Iraqi conflict, only they can stop it. Only they will stop it when they are tired of killing and ready to raise kids again. This is entirely the Iraqi’s fault. And your analysis of an increasing trend is not justified by the facts I gave you, which you ignored, as is your consistent action when confronted with facts you don’t agree with (to be fair, it is a very human reaction. Everyone does it. It takes time to admit those things. I hope you’ve got the time to admit you were wrong when I am borne out several years from now).

I won’t admit I’m wrong on this. I’m not. If W said to leave tomorrow, he would be wrong. If Jesus Christ himself came back and said, just leave them alone and let them kill themselves until they are exhausted, I wouldn’t leave Iraq alone. Victory will take time, massive effort, and a consistent aggressive policy of pushing back on the rising tide of anti-Western Islam. If you won’t push back against the true oppressors in the world today, then get out of my way before I walk over you. I won’t regret it. I won’t apologize for it. And neither should any American who believes in Truth, Liberty and Justice for All, — not just Americans. I am not ashamed of thinking this way either.

If you and your kind don’t have the stomach to fight Islamic oppression, then you have no business hanging the mantle of liberalism and humanitarianism on your heads. You are false and as evil as the names you call those who feel the way I do.

If you can’t stand up for Freedom and Fairness, and can’t recognize the difference between them and Islamic law, then it is you who are irrelevant, you who are misguided and stupid, and YOU who is wrong.

Think whatever you like. But every single war that was ever won, was won by lasting until the other side exhausted itself and gave up. And winning this war, will be no different.

Press on,to Victory.

Subsunk

honora, you will have a chance to see Mr. Clinton, Sandy Berger and Ms. Albright being filleted during the ABC 2-nights docudrama about Sept. 11, 2001, on the nights of Sept. 10 and 11. It’s based on commission findings, a commission the Left bows to.

For the first time much of the truth about the dereliction of the Clinton Admin. will be aired. You will find out how bin Laden was really offered on a platinum platter to a President who was too busy defending himself from floozy-gate.

You will also find out why Mr. Berger was busy hiding 9/11 documents in his pants and how weak the CIA had become, how the agents were called out of Afghanistan, even knowing where/how to get bin Laden.

“Are there any real men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards?” will be a phrase we’ll all be very intimate with after 9/11/06. We’ll hear it over and over and over. Most interesting will be who said it.

Yes, the Bush Admin. didn’t know or do everything either but we’ve heard that story a million times already, though it will not hurt to see it repeated.

As to your personal attack, you made your own point. I hadn’t shared anything, and still am not, that which I shouldn’t. I’m very aware of that. But I wish you a long enough life to find out. And in time you will. I happen to believe that it is a good thing that the citizenry doesn’t know everything. We coldn’t sleep at night.

Nothing makes me happier than when the MSM think they know and they’re led to believe that they do. Or they dwell in their ignorance. I have smiled so many times over this.

On a personal note, I really wish you well and am sorry that it ended in Kos-fashion. I never read that and the DU sites, but my peers on this site refer to them often.

Entelechy on August 24, 2006 at 12:15 AM

Let me know when you find out who stole the strawberries.

Honora,

I agree with Entelechy. You have resorted to the classic liberal defense method of personal attacks. Sad, really.

Cheers.

Rick on August 23, 2006 at 7:22 PM

What’s classic is how you refuse to outline your ideas on Iraq and Iran. Kinda tough isn’t it?

And we’re supposed to be alarmed over the loss of 30,000 Iraqis a year killing each other themselves because they are too arrogant and mean to live with their own fellow Iraqis?

Color me unsympathetic. That bloodshed is their fault, not ours. That killing is on their hands, not ours. And your lamentations of the horror of it are hollow and useless when they want to kill each other at every opportunity, and America is the only thing keeping that from happening.

Subsunk: So we should “stay the course” to keep these bloodthirsty people from killing each other? And I may not have a clue about warfare, but I have a clue about not having the stones to admit when you’re wrong. My comment re the escalating violence was clearly re the Iraqi on Iraqi killing. You insist on ignoring that so you don’t have to admit your mistake. Shame on you.

Who died and made you CENTCOM?

Where do you get your facts?

Iraqi casualties, the increase of which were the reason for the Baghdad security initiative. Get in the game pal.

honora on August 22, 2006 at 9:28 AM

Well, ma’am. Since the US casualties listed on Iraq Coalition Casualties website in May 06 were 79, June 06 was 63, and July 06 was 47, I question your competence in math when you claim an increasing trend. Iraqi casualties were 1119 in May 06, 872 in June 06, and 1280 in July 06 and 772 in August to date. I also question your competence in math if you can define that string of figures as an increasing trend, in either case.

I don’t know where you learned your military history or your statistical analysis, but in a military that loses 4000 men and women every year due to accidents and training when we are NOT at war, a loss of 850 personnel per year in combat, while heartrending and unfortunate, is not a significant casualty count over 3 years. Our wounded are approaching 9000 now (don’t point to 19000 wounded as the catastrophic casualty figure you claim since 10,000 of those wounded soldiers are back on duty in 72 hrs, combat ready and capable).

Your claim of escalating violence in this war is a little out of place when it is Iraqis killing Iraqis and not American soldiers. In Rwanda 2 million (minimum) were killed in a 4 yr conflict, In Bosnia 250,000 were killed in a little less than three years. In Darfur, over a million people have been displaced and over 200,000 have been killed and the UN can’t even claim it is doing anything about it. The Congo has lost 1 million people over the last 4 or 5 years. And we’re supposed to be alarmed over the loss of 30,000 Iraqis a year killing each other themselves because they are too arrogant and mean to live with their own fellow Iraqis?

Color me unsympathetic. That bloodshed is their fault, not ours. That killing is on their hands, not ours. And your lamentations of the horror of it are hollow and useless when they want to kill each other at every opportunity, and America is the only thing keeping that from happening.

Why don’t you go protest where it will do some good? I’m sure there are plenty of causes which are worthy of your time and efforts — in Korea and Okinawa, where clearly America is not wanted, but where the locals are just impolite enough to say leave without actually wanting us to go and take our 9 billion dollars out of their economy.

Lady, you sure don’t have a clue about what warfare is about.

Subsunk

For the first time much of the truth about the dereliction of the Clinton Admin. will be aired. You will find out how bin Laden was really offered on a platinum platter to a President who was too busy defending himself from floozy-gate.

You will also find out why Mr. Berger was busy hiding 9/11 documents in his pants and how weak the CIA had become, how the agents were called out of Afghanistan, even knowing where/how to get bin Laden.

“Are there any real men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards?” will be a phrase we’ll all be very intimate with after 9/11/06. We’ll hear it over and over and over. Most interesting will be who said it.

Yes, the Bush Admin. didn’t know or do everything either but we’ve heard that story a million times already, though it will not hurt to see it repeated.

As to your personal attack, you made your own point. I hadn’t shared anything, and still am not, that which I shouldn’t. I’m very aware of that. But I wish you a long enough life to find out. And in time you will. I happen to believe that it is a good thing that the citizenry doesn’t know everything. We coldn’t sleep at night.

Nothing makes me happier than when the MSM think they know and they’re led to believe that they do. Or they dwell in their ignorance. I have smiled so many times over this.

On a personal note, I really wish you well and am sorry that it ended in Kos-fashion. I never read that and the DU sites, but my peers on this site refer to them often.

I agree with Entelechy. You have resorted to the classic liberal defense method of personal attacks. Sad, really.

Cheers.

you have no idea how derelict your ‘boy’ really was.

I get a kick out of these veiled references to the secret knowledge you are privy to. Rule of thumb: people who actually know secret stuff tend to keep it to themselves and not talk such nonsense.

To even bring up “objectives” is meaningless.

I think you may have hit on the Bush administration’s epilogue. You know the old saying, if you don’t know where you’re going, any road will do.

I’m not a Mr. and if you’d pay attention to detail, there would have been plenty occasions for you to notice, but it isn’t significant.

I had the very best and positive intentions to continue a dialogue with what I hoped to be a sincere exception to your party. I’m disappointed it didn’t turn out that way and I don’t wish to go on with the name-calling.

Having seen the same newsconference, and self being very critical of our Commander-in-Chief’s inability to communicate, I thought he was clear on differentiating ’strategy’ from ‘tactics’. We’re not running a business here but a WOT. To even bring up “objectives” is meaningless.

Let’s just leave it at that. With very best regards, sincerely,

More advisors. That’s the ticket. Simplistic analysis, I know. But it’s the most constructive suggestion I’ve heard since the situation in Iraq began to deteriate. Rather than send more troops, which Moran concedes may lead to more American casualties and inflame the greater region, let’s expend our effort and resources to change the makeup of the troopers already there and hasten the end of the Iraq War… with victory.

Kadnine on August 21, 2006 at 5:47 PM

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20060701faresponse85412/larry-diamond-james-dobbins-chaim-kaufmann-leslie-h-gelb-stephen-biddle/what-to-do-in-iraq-a-roundtable.html

This is a very interesting discussion on Iraq. The comparison to Yugoslavia (versus the usual right wing Germany/Japan or left wing Vietnam) is illuminating. Would like to hear your POV. Cheers.

We can agree that honora is a nice, polite and intelligent lady. She’s also objective on several past or future Presidents. On Iraq she’s simply blindly wrong. Just forget about it.

Rick, you give the best accounts of Iraq: what was, what is and what will be.

Umnumzana, please don’t even go there.

Mr Entelechy, Mr Entelechy, when will get our final grades?

No numbnuts, that’s an objective, like world peace or ending hunger. Setting objectives is easy. It’s the strategy–the HOW–that is the tough part. Anyone who’s ever written a business plan knows that much. Not to mention the blithe comment about Iraqis wanting a democratic society. Really? Not in an Western sense of democracy they don’t.

In the same press conference, Dubya (again) talked about the war between waged on democracy by terrorists who hate democracy. Who is he talking about? The Hamas, the elected representatives of the Palestinians? Or Hezbollah, who hold a significant majority of seats in the democracy of Lebanon? Or the Shiite or the Sunni who are shooting it up in Iraq–you know, the flower of democracy in the middle east. Will someone please tell this fool that democracy and terrorism are not mutually exclusive, and that one doesn’t “fix” the other.

Saw a fabulous bumper sticker: Will someone please give this guy a blowjob so we can impeach him?

See where Joe L is breaking the land speed record of changing his stance on the war. Oh irony.

We can agree that honora is a nice, polite and intelligent lady. She’s also objective on several past or future Presidents. On Iraq she’s simply blindly wrong. Just forget about it.

It was nice but it has run its course and has become futile. She has made a great case why the liberals should never be referred to without quotes in front and after “progressive”. Also, that they should not be in charge any time soon. It’s simply too dangerous.

It’s not enough how many people died after we left Vietnam, and before we went to Kosovo, Rwanda, etc. – we need to let it happen again in Iraq, after all this effort. All rationality and humanity is gone and it’s simply sad.

I never aim to convince honora or anyone else how to vote. I just had more hope that we’d see eye-to-eye on the human suffering, given that honora mentioned the plight of Muslim women being featured on 60 Minutes, for ex. There are moments of lucidity and then darkness ensues. I’m sad about it.

But, if the Denocrats take control of Congress and the White in 2008, I guarntee you that our economy will implode and that damn fast because they will raise our taxes by astronomical amounts, and getting us out of Iraq we will see the Middle East explode in bloodshed. But, at least you’ll have Democrats in charge and that will make you feel good.

Umnumzana, please don’t even go there. The polls are turning in our direction and the hype from the MSM is just that. Regardless what they are anyway, I never focus on them too much. None are too plausible. I have faith that the people, though naive, are not suicidal. These times are too serious. The Reps have problems and I disagree with them on much but on security and the WOT it’s very clear – there is only one option.

Rick, you give the best accounts of Iraq: what was, what is and what will be. Yes, the war was won but that was good for Mr. Bush, right on the heels of Afghanistan. Nothing good which followed was allowed to surface. There is so much not even the media know and that’s good.

It will be a highly interesting fall.

Great point. The Iraq War was over a long time ago, and now we are in the process of rebuilding Iraq. Unfortunately, we are running into some resistance. The MSM has blurred all of it and continues to call it “the Iraq War”. The Bush Administration has failed to clarify this, and for that reason, is getting killed for it. The average Joe on the street, who probably watches an occassional MSM newscast, is being led to believe we are still fighting the original war. We are still fighting a war in Iraq, but that is the War on Terror – which we are fighting on a global scale, and is much larger than just conventional military action. I really wish the administration clarified this point. In fact, not many have made the distinction (including Fox, many bloggers, and some radio talk shows). The elections are coming up and this point needs to be made.

We *WON* the Iraq War in 21 days. A HUGE victory……What we’re having a problem with is keeping the peace.

:/

Here is a link to a video from Fox News.A journalist asks the question: “What did Iraq have to do with the attacks on September 11?”Bush answers: “Nothing”.There you have it. …

What do I think will happen if we leave Iraq? Pretty much what is happening now, only with a quicker end game. What else will happen: we will be able to concentrate on the real WOT, not this side show.

Seems to contradict the whole liberal/sensitive to others/our fault/we need to fix-it leftist position, no? Kind of has a “screw them” sort of ring to it. Don’t you think we owe it to these poor people to keep them from complete destruction? Why is it that when the going gets tough, liberals can’t wait to get out?

Once again, what about Iran? They are not going to stay out of Iraq when we leave – they will make sure to be the Iraqi’s saviors. Also, where are we going to redeploy our military? If we leave Iraq, let them kill each other while we watch from the sidelines, preach to Iran (and the rest of that region) – do you truly believe we will be listened to? You think they hate us now – wait until we do cut and run. They (Al-Qaeda, Iran, etc.) will claim victory; once again, show that America does not care about them; claim that we just went in to make matters worse; and the list goes on and on.

Iran will end up with much more influence in the region. Israel will be in a much weaker position. Our allies in the region will have no choice but to abandon us – don’t you get it? Things are only going to get worse. All because of what?? Some polls showing that the American people have doubts about the current state of Iraq? It’s a conflict – who doesn’t have doubts? Because liberals can’t stand Bush and Rumsfeld (and Rove)? Most of the Dems were on board in ‘02 and ‘03 when this whole thing came down (and don’t say they were misled – that’s a crock).

The truth is, it’s all about politics. The Dems want to get Congress back and the White House in ‘08. They are going to keep running on this issue, because it’s the only one they can run on – it’s what the polls say, right? Bush doesn’t appear to be popular because of the war. However, I do recall some exit polls in ‘04 showing Kerry was going to win. Oh, but wait, as Cynthia McKinney said “the electronic voting machines are rigged” – damn that Rove!! He’s good.

With all the excitement between Israel and Lebanon, it’s almost too easy to forget about the conflict that made us all so depressed in the first place. What’s the latest on “that” bummer?

Well, six weeks ago, President Bush paid Iraq’s Prime Minister Maliki a surprise visit in Iraq and praised the latest U.S./Iraqi joint initiative as, “the prime minister is taking immediate action to implement a plan to improve security and his top priority is around Baghdad. Operation Forward Together started this morning.” That operation, of course, was named by major General Koko the talking gorilla. It was either “Forward Together” or “Apple Together, Love Apple Love.”

However, since the launch of that major initiative, the situation has not only failed to improve, it’s actually “deteriorated,” with Baghdad seeing 34 major bombings and shootings for the week ended July 13, a 40% increase over the one-month period preceding it. The first sign you know your city is screwed: when you’re nostalgic for the time when there were only 24 major bombings and shootings a week.

The White House now admits its six-week old plan to boost security in Baghdad, quote, “has not achieved its objectives.” Now, instead of a new strategy, the U.S. will revise its objectives to something more manageable, like “pizza delivery in 30 minutes or its free.”

President Bush met with Prime Minister Maliki at the White House to try and solve the situation, promising, “If you find someone who’s kidnapping and murdering, the murderer needs to be held to account.” He then added, “And the kidnapper at least deserves a strong warning, maybe even a point on his license.”

Of course, what about motivating potential soldiers here in the U.S.? Well, the U.S. Marine Corps now has its own Myspace page, featuring information, downloads and a link to contact a recruiter. So far, more than 13 thousand Myspace users have registered as “friends” of the corps; a testament to the marines’ inspiring motto, “The Few, the Proud, the Anyone with an Internet Connection.”

It’s hard not to be a little depressed by the news. Sure, everyone knew this would happen sooner or later, but still… Myspace used to just be about the child predators, man. It just sucks to see it sell out and go all corporate.

from the Daily Show

Well then…

Lastly, how can you not see that Billy Jeff gutted our intelligence services and our military during his term because he hated the military and the intelligence services? Cohen was at best a very liberal Republican and more like a conservative Democrat and he lead the dismantling of our military, while Rumsfeld, God bless him, through strength of leadership made it possible for our military to respond. Even then, he was blamed for the low supply of armored vehicles and other military hardware, which was totally the fault of Cohen and Billy Jeff!

Umnumzana on August 22, 2006 at 11:50 AM

So Rumsfeld is responsible for all the good stuff associated with the military under his command; the bad stuff is Clinton’s fault.

Now there’s a reasonable argument.

What do I think will happen if we leave Iraq? Pretty much what is happening now, only with a quicker end game. What else will happen: we will be able to concentrate on the real WOT, not this side show.

If they want to slaughter each other, well I think history shows, they WILL slaughter each other. I don’t want to be in the way. One thing we could do (but won’t, Bush lacks the imagination) is husband a deconstruction of Iraq into 3 independent nations. After all, Iraq was never a nation in the traditional sense, it was cobbled together by the Brits after WWI and frankly was held together by Saddam in an artificial way.

I realize this is kinda bitchy, but where were all you guys back before we invaded Iraq. I remember have this discussion with my conservative friends: me–the likely outcome of this is, best case, a theocracy, worse case, a civil war; them–ha, ha, ha. Oh you silly liberals. I know the reply is “that’s water under the bridge”. Perhaps, but it seems to me that having made one such huge blunder, the blunderers would re-access. But no, stay the course. We are, after all, in the final throes, right?

You still haven’t answered the question regarding what you think will happen to Iraq if we just “pull-out”? Also, how will that help matters any? This is just politics as usual by the left – as long as we aren’t part of the mess, it doesn’t matter. You even admitted as much yourself when you previously posted that most of the fighting is sectarian right now (and not with us) – why would we pull out and let them completely slaughter each other? It makes no sense at all. In the long run, we will look worse for doing so (given how important world opinion is for liberals) – not to mention Iran is going to assert more influence in Iraq when we do leave.

As for you point on drafting 18 year olds (military, park service, etc.) – I have a serious problem with the government forcing programs down the people’s throats without an extraordinary reason to do so (a.k.a. socialism). Also, you contradicted yourself when you stated that we don’t need a big military – how big do you think the military would be if all 18 year-olds were drafted?

Further, Honora, you have posted a couple of times about you not knowing what the DNC’s plans (strategies, etc.) are – well, they don’t either. There is no plan (other than hoping things go bad for the administration so they can pounce on them).

Lastly, you are right about my comment regarding you protesting along with Murtha about the draft – that was a prediction – shouldn’t have done it.