Nightmare: Iraqi victim’s relatives won’t let U.S. exhume body
posted at 3:25 pm on July 17, 2006 by Allahpundit
Western evidentiary standards versus Islamic religious taboos. Something’s gotta give:
“Chief among our concerns is carrying out justice. But when you get town officials or an imam saying that exhuming the body doesn’t jive with our cultural sensitivities, that creates a massive stumbling block,” a U.S. military official in Baghdad close to the investigation said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to speak to media.
Without forensic evidence, prosecutors must rely heavily on statements from the suspects. Defense lawyers will doubtless claim those statements were made under duress and seek to keep them from the jury.
While some evidence has been collected at the home where the assault allegedly occurred, officials say none of it confirms guilt.
Someone I respect sent me the link to this post calling me out over our coverage of this story, so I feel like I have to respond. First, yeah, I’m aware of the allegation that SHE WAS TWELVE! I’ve looked at the photo of the victim’s Iraqi ID card five times now and I still don’t see how it proves that SHE WAS TWELVE! The date on it looks to me like 1991, not 1993 — and the AP agrees:
A photograph of the girl’s Iraqi identity card, viewed by The Associated Press in Baghdad, showed the girl was 14 at the time of the attack, with her birthdate listed as Aug. 19, 1991. The identity card was issued in 1993 and shows a picture of the girl as a toddler.
Needless to say, I don’t think the key distinction in a case involving American soldiers raping a young girl and killing her and her family depends upon whether she was fourteen or whether SHE WAS TWELVE!
Second, the fact that some of the soldiers involved confessed at the stress debriefing after Tucker’s and Menchaca’s kidnapping doesn’t prove that the kidnapping was “tied” to the rape. It does suggest that the suspects feared that possibility, but if it was all just a big revenge scheme, why didn’t the jihadis just say so at the time? Why isn’t it just as likely that the “revenge” they were seeking was for the killing of Zarqawi, which occurred only eleven days earlier?
Third, without further evidence, this:
And here’s a little more horrific speculation for you– what if Menchaca, Tucker and Babineau were in on it too? Would that be causal enough for you? What if the whole squad, in the spirit of friendly camaderie went on that little joyride? Dead men tell no tales, and they can’t be charged either. And their memories are sacred, no?
is beneath contempt. It is worth noting, though, that the FBI affidavit attached to the complaint charging Steven Green alleges that four people were directly involved in the attack: Green, two other soldiers who provided information and one additional soldier who did not. According to the charges filed last week, though, four soldiers in addition to Green are being charged with rape and murder. The affidavit would seem to be incomplete, then; it may be that additional info implicating another soldier came to light after the complaint against Green was filed.
Anyway, FYI.










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Doesn’t the court-martial fall apart without that evidence? I mean, if we do all we can to discover the truth, and we’re denied crucial evidence by cultural taboos…well, we tried.
I’d like to see the soldiers exonerated based on all the evidence, or convicted, if the evidence points to their guilt. This is not ideal, but we’ve at least shown our willingness to try the suspects.
see-dubya on July 17, 2006 at 3:54 PM
I don’t think “best efforts” will curry much favor with the Iraqis.
Allahpundit on July 17, 2006 at 3:57 PM
Uhm, can we say, court order?
Screw cultural sensibilities.
rightwingprof on July 17, 2006 at 4:05 PM
You have to understand that to a large portion of the world, what they BELIEVE needs no proof…
Why open up the caskets to get proof, when they already KNOW the truth??? When they already can, and have, used this for political gain. PROOF would allow us to either punish this crime (which we can’t do without proof, but would make us look good), or DISPROOVE the allegations…
Either way, its a loose loose for Islamic Jihadists if we get permission to look at the bodies.
Romeo13 on July 17, 2006 at 4:10 PM
Attention, attorneys (armchair and otherwise). In this case, what kind of case is there without a body?
Kid from Brooklyn on July 17, 2006 at 4:22 PM
there is none
its heresay (he said she said)
You need real physical evidence here (DNA, bodies, semen samples SOMETHING) if you want to tie the marines to the rape and murder. Without actual testing I can’t do a damn thing in prosecution and the soldiers will walk.
Defector01 on July 17, 2006 at 4:36 PM
How many cases get trashed for much less than no evidence?
No evidence, no case. Make up your mind Mohamed.
Hening on July 17, 2006 at 4:42 PM
It certainly makes one wonder. This same thing raised a big red flag on the whole Haditha ‘massacre’ story, which has fallen off the media radar screen as of late.
I don’t want to take these charges lightly, as there could be a few bad apples among our soldiers. But the Islamic idea that it is taboo to exhume the bodies when they know we need them for evidentiary purposes should give one pause, particularly when many muslims seem to have no problem breaking their own religious edicts when it is convenient for them (e.g., blowing up mosques, etc.).
Seems to me that, without examining the body, the worst you can say is that the charged soldiers might be guilty. But might be guilty is not sufficient to put them away for a long prison sentence.
thirteen28 on July 17, 2006 at 5:00 PM
No evidence? No worries. Nifong to the rescue!!!!!
No offense intended to the victims’ families.
ScottG on July 17, 2006 at 5:17 PM
Allah,
Tell them “Welcome to the real world” when it comes to forensic science for truth, liberty and justice for all.
Ok…that sounds too much like hawking this new Superman movie.
Oh well…
Kokonut on July 17, 2006 at 5:24 PM
“The problem is that American crimes are only a hundredth of the crimes committed by the militias,” said Omar al-Jubouri, the human rights officer for the Iraqi Islamic Party, a powerful Sunni group that still considers itself the vanguard of political resistance to the Americans. “It’s like one hair compared to all the other hairs on a camel.”
neandertal on July 17, 2006 at 6:57 PM
I believe 4 things are required for a murder conviction. The victims body, the motive, the weapon, something placing the suspect at the scene of the crime (corraborating witnesses, signed confession, DNA, ect). Without the body, proof becomes very subjective and circumstantial. A good defense lawyer could probably shred the case. Remember all one has to do to acquit is to prove reasonable doubt.
docdave on July 17, 2006 at 9:20 PM
What am I missing?
Iraqi Mass Graves Strategic Plan
Iraq’s Legacy of Terror: Mass Graves
There was a ton of forensics on those victims, with family cooperation because the survivors sought proof of injustice.
The current sensitivity sounds a lot like the staged wedding party, and other familiar tales. I would be surpised were forensics refused if it could take out a group of infidels who desecrated one of their own.
entagor on July 17, 2006 at 10:46 PM
Case closed! Thank you! Move along! Move along!
Dread Pirate Roberts VI on July 18, 2006 at 9:03 AM
In the case of Lt. Ilario Pantano, the bodies were exhumed and showed that the Iraqis were NOT shot in the back, but where shot front-on, consistent with Pantano’s testimony, and negating his accuser’s.
This is not a case where the remains have been destroyed. The body in this case, like those bodies of the “victims” allegedly murdered at Haditha, is of prime importance to the defense, as it may be exculpatory.
I would think that a fair trial could NOT be held if the defense were denied the right to an impartial autopsy. The case against the defendents includes rape and murder, the circumstances of both are in dispute (as evidenced by the “not-guilty” pleas).
I would think that absent an impartial autopsy, it would be very difficult to prove rape and murder beyond a reasonable doubt.
But that’s my untutored, ignorant, opinion.
georgej on July 18, 2006 at 4:21 PM