CNN: Soldiers unrecognizable, bodies booby-trapped (Update: Photo of dead jihadi added)

posted at 4:09 pm on June 20, 2006 by Allahpundit

As was the road leading to their remains.

No matter how bad you think they are, the jihad just keeps on surprising you, doesn’t it?

Update: Allah went digging at CENTCOM to bring you the silver lining in this very black cloud. Here’s Sheikh Mansour, Al Qaeda’s “religious emir,” two months ago with the man himself:


And here he is today after an airmail delivery of U.S. ordnance:


I hope the piece of shit suffered. The AP has more.

Update: We can’t complain about U.S. soldiers being mutilated because we’ve lost the moral high ground. You heard it here first.

Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air



Trackback URL



I can’t speak for anyone else, but I cannot stress strenuously enough the fact that I am not trying to demonize anyone.
From what I’m seeing, most of us are on the same side. We’ve just got a lively debate on tactics going on here.

violet on June 20, 2006 at 8:35 PM

SO, Violet…what is your solution? Let’s not be barbaric…OK…?

Sandys Beach on June 20, 2006 at 8:47 PM

…and what is your concept of war, Violet…???

Sandys Beach on June 20, 2006 at 8:55 PM


im not sure what the best option should be,but i know
we need to be more aggressive in taking these insurgents out, the problem is the iraqi people will not turn these
people over for whatever reason. we send in our troops to be sitting ducks or we go in and level the city.
(we allow innocents to flee remember),also anytime we purse
these people and a civilian gets killed they are accused
of war crimes. the iraq war is not the vietnam war but the insurgents know the leasons the vietnam war…all they have to do is hold on long enough for Americas resolve to break
(kerry,murtha,gore,the msm)something needs to be done and fighting a P.C war is not going to do it.

Sandysbeach- my father was a marine in da nang(68-69)
when a 10yr old girl reached behing her back and pulled a satchel cord(luckly a dud)while selling cokes outside the main gate

mike hale on June 20, 2006 at 9:07 PM

OK everyone, like I told ForYOurEdification, Calm down now. I went to eat my mexican food and had a margarita. now i’m back. take deep breaths. drink some tea, gather up your senses. we don’t want the blues of the world to think we’ve lost our collective minds, because we haven’t. Allah, help me out here.

I said on an earlier post that i WISH i could post a letter from my nephew who’s stationed at FOB Kalsu south of baghdad. he said that absolutely the iraqis want us there and that the progress that the iraqi military is making is, in his words, quite surprising. He said that during training exercises, our soldiers show them what to do, and they repeat it with zeal and vigor. when they clear houses, usually it’s OUR guys who break down the doors and then the Iraqi soldiers take over. My nephew said those iraqi soldiers are doing a damned fine job and it’s coming along nicely.

Going over there to carpet bomb the hell out of them is NOT going to help us win this war. becoming a bit more agressive, yes possibly.

We will win this war because we have more RESOURCES. We can fight the terrorists for YEARS – we won’t run out of money, we won’t run out of M16’s or ammo, we won’t run out of tanks, missiles, f-16’s, bombers, etc. We can fight for a VERY LONG TIME. They can’t. It’s that simple. We will win this war as long as we have the resolve to STAY there. They will eventually run out of gas. We won’t. We will LOSE is we run out of guts and leave. It’s a game of chicken, really.

pullingmyhairout on June 20, 2006 at 9:18 PM

In a highly circulated email it was stated that General John “Black Jack” Pershing ended the muslim terrorist insurgency in the Philippines by executing “moros” after slaughtering pigs, dipping the bullets in the pig blood, then burying the muslim insurgents with the pigs. This account is doubtful see

However, a Colonel Alexander Rodgers is reported to have done something sililar. “All Moros who ran juramentado were killed and laid out in the market place with slaughtered pigs placed above them.” see

Maybe the US should do this in Iraq.

If the leftist, islamofacist terrorist inablers, who want to cut and run, cry foul, they should be told to shove it.

Gen. Pershing did say. “the only principle for which they fought was the right to pillage and murder without molestation from the government.”.

Pillage and murder is how islam was spread in the first place. Never mind that we hear today that islam is a religion of peace. Pillage and murder and the taking of plunder spread islam through Christian Palastine and North Africa and Turkey. Even the jewish and/or christian person in a protected dhimmi status was subjected to pillage and murder.

LurP on June 20, 2006 at 9:20 PM

Pablo, we will never see eye to eye on this. You see the enemy as “bad muslims” I see it as islime itself, just like nazism. There were no good nazis and there are no good muslimes either. If the people didn’t worship that moon devil, if they were anything but islimic I wouldn’t have a problem with them. It’s the cult. Not the people.

I see what you’re saying – I don’t agree. Doesn’t matter anyhow. We don’t have the guts to fight them on their own terms. We have to fight with 1 hand around our balls. That’s why we deserve to lose.

ecamorg on June 20, 2006 at 9:28 PM

That’s why we deserve to lose.

I’m up to speed on Islam, ecamorg. I understand the problem. It’s the solution we don’t agree on. And this:

That’s why we deserve to lose.

Bite your tongue.

Pablo on June 20, 2006 at 9:31 PM

THANKYOU..pullingmyhair out…that is the most concise report of what is going on there..We usually only see the bad stuff…they want us there and that alone wins us this conflict. My anger lies with the MSM…not telling the American people what a fantastic job our soldiers are doing in other day to day stuff…we are fed a daily ration of AbuGraeb and Gitmo and the latest ‘MARINE atrocity. Your post did my heart good.

Sandys Beach on June 20, 2006 at 9:31 PM

pullingmyhairout- i for one just made a cup of hot tea,
but i did have a thought…didnt we have these same
resources in vietnam, lets ask the south vietnamese about
Americas resolve

mike hale on June 20, 2006 at 9:32 PM

…and what is your concept of war, Violet…???

My concept of war? You don’t think I’m some progressive retard do you? ‘Cause that’d be silly.

As for my solution: I’m supposed to have a solution for terrorism because I said we shouldn’t bomb the shit out of civilians as an act of revenge?

Please don’t get caught up in the lie that the MSM is spinning, that things are so dire over there that nothing is working and we should despair.

violet on June 20, 2006 at 9:35 PM

pullingmyhairout – nice comment. Very well said, BZ!

And God bless your nephew.

You’re right, time IS on our side. If we can get the Libs to stay out of the way, and quit undermining our Troops with their “pull out before we win” mentality, we’ll get the victory our Troops and the Iraqi people want.

Richard Davis on June 20, 2006 at 9:35 PM

I apologize in advance. I think I may have pinged you twice. Sorry.

fmragtops on June 20, 2006 at 9:39 PM

Mike Hale said: didnt we have these same
resources in vietnam, lets ask the south vietnamese about
Americas resolve

we lost in vietnam because we pulled out and gave up.

And thank you for all the nice comments. i’ll update ya’ll whenever i get info from my nephew. he’s a very special kid.

oh, BTW, did any of ya’ll notice that better off blue never commented again? he he he he he. I guess he knows to steer clear of us.

pullingmyhairout on June 20, 2006 at 9:54 PM

Violet…I asked what was your concept of war…did not want to go on a tangent of progressive issues or methods of revenge…
Just wondering how you think we can win if we do not kill the enemy….I have no concept of war, myself…just that it is a human condition and we are all subject to feelings of revenge when our borders are impinged upon or our people are burned alive or must jump out of buning buildings because stinking terrorists are not happy with our lack of understanding why we do not bow to allah 5 times a freakin’ day. Don’t mean to rant and I am tired after all this pntificating…we are on the same side…just have differenct methods of winning…..nite nite. ;-0

Sandys Beach on June 20, 2006 at 10:00 PM

I wonder if these soldiers hesitated to fight back? I wonder if they could have saved themselves, but hesitated to because of the damned America hating media who might have made them into war criminals!

Yes, I do wonder – I wonder if they could have saved themselves, but didn’t want to be labelled as killers and put under a microscope for investigation by these Murtha types who hate our Military!

These jerks have our entire Military walking on eggshells and it’s BS!

BillyKess on June 20, 2006 at 10:03 PM

My son just returned from Iraq this past Sunday. He informs me that a tough job is made harder by all the PC bull that they have to go through. Let the military do its job without having the specter of an investigation always hanging over their heads.

You know many french people were killed when the allies retook France….I do not recall ever hearing about GI’s having to go throught any BS because of that…..and the french complain about everything (lol)

robo on June 20, 2006 at 10:11 PM

I was headed to bed but I had to look at this site one more time…man, wish I haden’t…
Robo..thank you from the bottom of my mothers heart for the sacrifice you made in giving us your son…he will always be a hero..and don’t forget to give him a great big kiss from me…a real moms kiss to welcome him home.
You sentiments hit the nail on the head…politically correct BS is killing our boys and I wonder, also, if they perhaps hesitated and that is what doomed their fate…wondering if they should defend themselves but worrying if they would be pilloried by the stinking news media.
Now, I am retiring for the evening,,,for sure….

Sandys Beach on June 20, 2006 at 10:24 PM

words fail me, I’m so incredibly saddened and sickened…..
and angry!

prayers for these men and their families and all our troops.

donna91 on June 20, 2006 at 10:45 PM


We are on the same side. No more arguing, ok? :)

violet on June 20, 2006 at 10:56 PM


im not sure what the best option should be,but i know
we need to be more aggressive in taking these insurgents out, the problem is the iraqi people will not turn these
people over for whatever reason.

I’m in agreement with you on this. I don’t really have any solution either. I also think that our military is a little too concerned with being PC. For example, I don’t think that granny pannies on your head and barking dogs qualifies as torture, but whatever. It was just the “collateral damage” thought that bothered me.

And you’re right, all of our enemies have learned from Vietnam. They’ve learned that if they hold out long enough, we will turn on ourselves, with the anti-war movement leading the charge to cut and run.

As VDH once said, “This war is ours to lose.”

violet on June 20, 2006 at 11:00 PM

Pablo, I was biting my tongue as I typed it. It gives me no pleasure to watch history repeat itself. Until God changes the rules life will always seek dominance over other life. It happens all the time in a million ways on countless stages. It it the Law of Nature: Competitive Struggle. The stronger deserve to win.

While I see PMHO’s observation as well, I am more than a little skeptical. Sounds like a temporary bandage to avoid using a scalpel. The disease has metastasized and is spreading fast. This business has happened before…OVER AND OVER. How many muslime countries were there 100 yrs ago? Their reproductive rate is more than double ours. When they become the majority, violence often comes with them. Submission is the sworn, self-proclaimed enemy of Freedom. I see the reckoning. It’s impossible not to.

ecamorg on June 20, 2006 at 11:03 PM

Too angry to think of anything to write on this subject.

Peace be with them.

easy87us on June 20, 2006 at 11:11 PM

It turns out that our soldiers were NOT killed by Terrorist, but Traitors. It is being reported that they were murdered by two Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them.

Time to do some lynching..

Rudeseal on June 20, 2006 at 11:45 PM

No, Rude. That’s a different story, about two killings from 2004.

Allahpundit on June 20, 2006 at 11:46 PM

Ok, I am a total Idiot.. I missed the date in the story of 2004.. gaaaaa!!.. Sorry everyone..

Rudeseal on June 20, 2006 at 11:55 PM

We’ve just got a lively debate on tactics going on here.

More like a debate between 12 year old retards who also happen to have a vile sense of morals. Great ideas guys, we’ll show Saddam a thing or two about slaughtering innocent Iraqi civilians! You carpet-bombing advocates ought to be ashamed, and some of the rest of you ought to be ashamed of your tepid response to these idiot armchair genocidists.

dorkafork on June 20, 2006 at 11:58 PM

Well said, sir.

Allahpundit on June 21, 2006 at 12:05 AM


Rot in Hell. I’m glad you dead and piss on your grave. Too bad everyone you knew and loved was not with you.

We need to tell the natives, “sacrifice your house for your life”, then… let’s bring back carpet bombing and level that shit hole of a country.

RolandHall on June 21, 2006 at 12:05 AM

Ya know after 9/11 I was all for carpet bombing, MOAB’ing and nuking the entire Mideast. And that was before I really studied up on Islam.
I’ve had 2 sons serve in Iraq, both came back alive. One has gone back as a civilian contractor.
As angry as this makes me my kids put up because they believe in the mission.
Even they think there are portions of Iraq that should be bombed out of existence. For reasons all us

idiot armchair genocidists

have no clue about.
The point being that the military itself knows where and how to do it but the

idiot armchair leftards

don’t understand warfare. Apparently neither does dorkafork or allahpundit. If your for the insurgents killing our troops say so, because it seems that in your minds we’re the monsters. Not the be-headers and murderers. They constantly kill our people but for us it’s just the wages of war. But if we try to fight back, while they hold their women and children in front of them, then we’re monsters.
Which is it dorkafork, allahpundit…do we all send our sons, daughters, fathers and husbands over to Iraq to fight and die in your prissy little war? Or do we fight to win?

BTW dorkafork, Google toolbar has this neat little feature that will check your spelling on an editbox in a web page with just a click.
Check it out.

Cpilot on June 21, 2006 at 12:49 AM

I haven’t read all the comments here, but I have read enough to get the idea that some commenters would like the United States to carpet-bomb civilians, or randomly kill civilians.

You should be deeply ashamed of yourselves. We’re there to help the Iraqis — now you want us to randomly slaughter them like the terrorists do to us?

I shouldn’t have to say this, but that is despicable and outrageous.

I think it comes from you seeing all Iraqis as less than human.

Have any of you met Omar and Mohammed, the folks who run Iraq the Model?

Well, I have. They are inspirational people, fighting for freedom in a land that has known far too little of it, for far too long.

The actions you advocate could kill them. Indeed, you suggest *targeting* people exactly like them.

If you had met them, you wouldn’t be saying this.

I hope that the commenters making suggestions like this get banned.

Patterico on June 21, 2006 at 1:07 AM

A bunch of folks who have commented in this thread will no longer be joining us in the Hot Air comments section. It’s been a long time coming, frankly; Bryan and I have talked with Michelle about the tone of the comments at some length in recent days and none of us are happy with it.

I’m not going to lecture anyone. You’re all entitled to your opinions, but you’re not entitled to use our space as a platform. There are a million other conservative forums out there. Registration at Free Republic is indeed free, and they seem to have a higher tolerance for this sort of thing.

Thanks all for your contributions, and best of luck in your new digs. To the rest of you guys: I mean what I say about changing the tone here. If you can’t muster anything except “it’s the goddamned media’s fault” or “we need to let our troops off the leash” or “Michelle looks HAWT,” you have two choices: (a) refrain from commenting until you have something substantive to say or (b) sign up for one of those Freeper accounts I mentioned.


Allahpundit on June 21, 2006 at 1:08 AM

Good for you.

Patterico on June 21, 2006 at 1:10 AM

Dorkafork and Patterico are making me feel ashamed I wasn’t more forthright about how horrible the idea of retaliating against non-combatant civilians really is.

see-dubya on June 21, 2006 at 1:58 AM

Well, it’s so obvious it shouldn’t really have to be said.

Patterico on June 21, 2006 at 2:02 AM

Plus, you did say it. You called it “just plain evil.”

Patterico on June 21, 2006 at 2:03 AM

I hope my comments are still accepted, Allah.
We have many recent examples of the savagery and butchery man is capable of. The Japanese soldiers in WWII were extremely cruel to their captives-and the evil which was the Hussein regime, and now the ‘insurgents’-shock us by being inhumanely cruel. Beslan was a horrific, heartbreaking example of the same.
But the Japanese are no longer cruel. What changed them?
They worshipped their Emperor as God. They believed that the Japanese were the superior race, and that other races were less than human, so it was no more wrong to kill a white man than a dog.
They no longer believe that. They have been humbled, by losing the war. When the insurgents/terrorist Muslims are humbled, and face the fact that all men are equal, all of us are human, Jews and Christians and Muslims alike-then Muslims will no longer have the heart to be inhumane. Just as the Germans no longer run extermination camps for Jews and other non-Aryans. Humble them; when they accept that a Muslim is not superior to anyone, then the inhumanity ends.
Humble them.

Doug on June 21, 2006 at 2:06 AM

yeah, I’ve got the dirty bastards’ “moral highground” swinging.
Who in Hell does moulitka thin he is, some kind of little clay idol speaking ex-officio from his belly button? His kind make me sick, thy deserveto be tread as traitors, no matter WHAT Bill O’eilly says.

Rowane on June 21, 2006 at 2:10 AM

I’m sure it won’t be the first place people have been squelched.
I know it wouldn’t be for me.

Rowane on June 21, 2006 at 3:37 AM

pablo writes: “You think you can bomb that out of 1.5 billion people?”

Wretchard of Belmont Club wrote an essay title “The Three Conjectures” in 2003 at

Conjecture 1 is that terrorism has lowered the nuclear threshold, and a suspicion of the existance of a nuke in terrorist hands could result in a US preemptive strike using nukes.

But it gets worse than this. Much, much, worse.

Conjecture 2 is that attaining WMDs will destroy Islam.

Wretchard writes:

“This fixity of malice was recognized in President Bush’s West Point address in the summer of 2002, when he concluded that “deterrence — the promise of massive retaliation against nations — means nothing against shadowy terrorist networks with no nation or citizens to defend.” The enemy was equally indifferent to inducement or threat. Neither making nice — Jimmy Carter’s withdrawal from Iran, Reagan’s abandonment of Lebanon, Bush’s defense of Saudi Arabia, Clinton’s rescue of Albanian Muslims from Serbian genocide, the payment of billions in aid to Egypt and Pakistan — nor the gravest of threats would alter the enemy’s intent to utterly destroy and enslave America. Allah had condemned America. The Faithful only had to find the means to carry out the execution.

Because capability is the sole variable of interest in the war against terrorism, the greater the Islamic strike capability becomes, the stronger the response will be….

…Consider a case where Islamic terrorists obliterate a city, causing five times the deaths at Hiroshima and an American limited response.

Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 – 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
Total – 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6

In a war between nations, the conflict might stop at this point. But since there is no one with whom to negotiate a peace and no inclination to stop anyhow, the Islamic terrorists will continue while they have the capability and the cycle of destruction continues.

Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 – 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
2 – 1 x 10^6 -5 x 10^6
3 – 5 x 10^6 -1.5 x 10^7
4 – 8 x 10^6 -3.0 x 10^7
5 – 1.5 x 10^7 -5.0 x 10^7
Total – 2.95 x 10^7 -10.2 x 10^7

At this point, a United States choked with corpses could still not negotiate an end to hostilities or deter further attacks. There would be no one to call on the Red Telephone, even to surrender to. In fact, there exists no competent Islamic authority, no supreme imam who could stop a jihad on behalf of the whole Muslim world. Even if the terror chiefs could somehow be contacted in this apocalyptic scenario and persuaded to bury the hatchet, the lack of command and control imposed by the cell structure would prevent them from reining in their minions. Due to the fixity of intent, attacks would continue for as long as capability remained. Under these circumstances, any American government would eventually be compelled by public desperation to finish the exchange by entering -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column: total retaliatory extermination.
Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 – 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
2 – 1 x 10^6 -5 x 10^6
3 – 5 x 10^6 -1.5 x 10^7
4 – 8 x 10^6 -3.0 x 10^7
5 – 1.5 x 10^7 -5.0 x 10^7
6 0 -8.93 x 10^8
Total – 2.95 x 10^7 -1 x 10^9

The so-called strengths of Islamic terrorism: fanatical intent; lack of a centralized leadership; absence of a final authority and cellular structure guarantee uncontrollable escalation once the nuclear threshold is crossed. Therefore the ‘rational’ American response to the initiation of terrorist WMD attack would be all out retaliation from the outset.

Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 – 5 x 10^5 -1 x 10^9
Total – 5 x 10^5 -1 x 10^9 ”

[Emphasis and bold, mine]

So, yes, given that Islamofascism is NOT a state, the result might very well be the death of every muslim on the planet, if the Islamofascists obtain nuclear weapons.

And this is a horror that must not be allowed to happen.

Wretchard’s 3rd conjecture is: “The War on Terror is the ‘Golden Hour’ — the final chance”

He writes: “It is supremely ironic that the survival of the Islamic world should hinge on an American victory in the War on Terror, the last chance to prevent that terrible day in which all the decisions will have already been made for us. That effort really consists of two separate aspects: a campaign to destroy the locus of militant Islam and prevent their acquisition of WMDs; and an attempt to awaken the world to the urgency of the threat. While American arms have proven irresistible, much of Europe, as well as moderates in the Islamic world, remain blind to the danger and indeed increase it. Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammad recently “told an international conference of young Muslim leaders … (that) … Muslims must acquire skills and technology so they can create modern weapons and strike fear into the hearts of our enemies”. Fecklessness and gunpowder are a lethal combination. The terrible ifs accumulate.”

The liberals and the Democrats absolutely refuse to see the danger of “cut and run” as it affects the long term picture of what might come about if we lose the war against the Islamofascists.

I believe that if the Democrats take control of the government (or even one house of Congress), and if they follow through in their surrender plan in Iraq or block the war in Iraq through parliamentary processes, then a day may come when America will have to do a very terrible deed — out of pure self defense.

Or we sit and watch the human race die, in obedience to the liberal’s orders….

georgej on June 21, 2006 at 3:55 AM


and some of the rest of you ought to be ashamed of your tepid response to these idiot armchair genocidists.

You know what? It was a poor choice of words and I shouldn’t have tried to end the argument with a glib comment, just because I was tired of arguing about something so insanely stupid.
You’re right. I was being a sissy.

violet on June 21, 2006 at 4:31 AM

This is not the first insurgency in Iraq. In 1920, after Imam Shirazi of Karbala, issued a fatwa, that British rule violated Islamic law, an uprising began that was called the “Great Rebellion of 1920” that was far more bloodier than what we are seeing today.

The “insurgents” used similar tactics, including the mutilating of captured British soldiers, ambushes, and so on. The Brits responded with air power, destroying entire villages by bombing and machine gun straffing, and brutal infantry/armored car assaults. Churchill, then Secretary of State for War in Whitehall, even advocated the use of poison gas against the insurgents, though it appears that they were never used.

The “Great Rebellion” was put down in 4 months at the cost of 6,000 dead Iraqis and 500 British/Indian troops.

Unlike the Brits, who intended to rule Iraq and Transjordan under their League of Nations mandate, our presence is intended to support and advance a democratic government in Iraq that will become the cornerstone and an alliance that will doom the Islamofascists.

So, unlike the 1920 Brits, we won’t turn Yusifiyah into series of connected large craters created by overlapping “daisycutters.”

We will show restraint.

We will choke back our tears, and swallow our anger and our pain, and even our hatred, and carry on — hunting down the terrorists and either arresting them or killing them as it happens, individually, while limiting collateral damage to the innocent.

This is the right thing to do, though our heart yearns for showing them no mercy, no consideration; not on the battlefleld nor in Gitmo.

And, the Fifth Column MSM and the liberals/Democrats will STILL continue to loudly screech that “Abu Gharib” and “Gitmo” and “Haditha” are major war crimes against humanity and “abuses” under the Geneva and Hague Conventions that warrant prosecution of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, while at the same time, completely ignoring or absolving Al Qaeda of clear and rank violations of the Laws of War, as they brutally torture and murder our captured soldiers and murder the innocent men, women, and children in Iraq.

No matter what nonsense the traitorous left bleat at dailykos, we really are on the side of the angels.

Let’s not forget that.

georgej on June 21, 2006 at 6:01 AM

Nicely said, georgej.

violet on June 21, 2006 at 6:09 AM

Well said, georgej.

That’s very good news, Allah. The howlers are just so draining. Thank you.

Patterico sez:

Have any of you met Omar and Mohammed, the folks who run Iraq the Model?

Well, I have. They are inspirational people, fighting for freedom in a land that has known far too little of it, for far too long.

The actions you advocate could kill them. Indeed, you suggest *targeting* people exactly like them.

Amen. They are our allies. They are our friends. They are of the Iraqis that have the power to rip that corner of the world out of the 7th century and thrust it into the 21st. They and theirs are bleeding and have bled. They are the ones that have heard the call of liberty and answered it. They see the evil and recognize it. They don’t want it in their country. They are a majority of Iraqis.

Now then, let’s kill all of the bad guys, shall we?

Pablo on June 21, 2006 at 6:41 AM

Thanks to Michelle and Bryan, as well. This place is going nuclear, and I’d hate to see it dragged through the mud by people who don’t think and just write. Standards are nice. I like it. :-)

Pablo on June 21, 2006 at 6:45 AM

Everyone relax. Deep breaths. Have a beer. Pass me one, too. It’s five o’clock somewhere. Australia, I think.

I’m glad I left this thread when I was angry – because I might now apparently be banned.

It’s unfortunate that happened to a few posters, and this whole “Dresden” argument is equally unfortunate.

For the record, nobody – and I mean nobody – actually means that rhetoric. I know they say they do. I’m sure they FEEL that angry. They probably even think they mean it.

But they don’t. They’re angry and hurt by what happened to those young men. I don’t blame them.

But be patient with the anger, would you? It’s emotion. That’s all. We understand the Iraqis are our allies, and when the thought “nuke the bastards” scrolled across my brainpan yesterday, I knew I didn’t really mean it. But I felt it.

Let’s try to think, folks. And when some of us stop thinking and let emotion reign free … have a little patience for those people. Perhaps a temporary ban rather than a permanent one? A bucket of cold water on the head? The anonymous nature of the Internet sometimes lets us speak before our brains can be engaged. A little time out is a good thing.

The bottom line: nobody really wants to carpet bomb Baghdad. But then again … I think many of us wish we could fight this war … like its actually a war, rather than a third-rate police action with tactics influeced by politics. We tried that once, remember?


By the way, speaking of Dresden, a lot of you need a history review on the subject. Wikipedia has a very good article on it (one of the few good articles I’ve seen there). The gist is that 1) we didn’t do anything in Dresden we didn’t do elsewhere (in fact, we dropped less ordinance on Dresden than on many other cities), 2) weather conditions (the most important factor), refugee movements, and German lack of preparation are what led to an unusually high death rate, and 3) there were plenty of factories in Dresden and a critical railway and communications junction.

Still plenty of room for debate on that one (on some other thread, of course). But get the basics right.

Professor Blather on June 21, 2006 at 7:59 AM

Some of you guys are having an emotional reaction to a horrible event because you are good people who love our Troops. However, we are fighting this war the correct way. We’re turning our former enemies into our allies and letting them fight the enemy alongside us. When they’re ready to do so they will take over the fight in their own countries (Afghanistan, Iraq) while we move on to the next terror safe haven. Yes, we need to be more aggressive, but we also need to be the Liberators that we are. The People of Iraq and Afghanistan VOTED for their representatives because our Soldiers freed them from bondage. Now they are our friends, helping us fight the terrorists who wish to impose their sharia law upon the world. It it human nature to desire freedom, the people in those countries want to be free, they stuck a purple finger in the eye of terrorism when they voted and now that they have freedom, they won’t give it up. They still line up to join the new army and they are eager to defeat their enemy.

This is how we fight and this is how we will win. But if we were to carpetbomb cities, all of our new allies would turn against us and all those brave Soldiers who died will have done so in vein.

By turning dictatorships in the M.E. into free countries we are safeguarding America’s future generations. Yes, we pay the price today in blood and treasure, but we must win today to protect our children and grandchildren from the horrors of islam.

Either we liberate the peoples of the M.E. or the terrorists from that part of the world will islamize us. We’re not gonna let that happen. Our choices (to prevent our islamitization) are either do what we’re doing now, or to nuke the entire muslim world and wipe out all of our potential friends along with the enemy. Yes, I do know the history of islam and how it spread. Yes we have potential enemies within our allies. Yes, we could end the war in one day by destroying them all. But we are America and we (almost) always do the right thing.

Tony737 on June 21, 2006 at 8:27 AM

But we are America and we (almost) always do the right thing.

Exactly. And the sad truth is that sometimes being the good guy just plain sucks.

While we “torture” them with air conditioning and lemon chicken on Tuesdays and free Korans, they mutilate and execute – and much of the world and the media and the liberal left will condemn us and ignore them.

We are the good guys – and this is what happens to good guys in our modern world. Only through the backward lens of history will we get the credit we deserve.

Professor Blather on June 21, 2006 at 8:32 AM

Amen to the showing of restraint. I came across a link on JihadWatch a couple of weeks back – originally authored by a Brit – that summarized the primary duties of a counterinsurgency. It included police work, bridge-building, and the taking of casualties from insurgents with certain types of response [not] allowed.

If I find the link I will post it.

There are two real problems as I see it: (The problem with Islam is a longer and more intractable problem that must be challenged with ideas and more, and braver, ridicule of Islamic taboos than we have shown in the face of publishing the Mohammed cartoons.)

1. Our unwillingness to take casualties in this conflict, and do the other things such as articulate and defend to the “world community” why it’s acceptable to imprison jihadists at Guantanamo bay. In WWII the press helped us take those casualties/steps. Since Vietnam, the press has made it more difficult for those responsible do the same. But not impossible…

2. Our misunderstanding of the target audience: The wider Muslim world. We must do & say many things on many fronts to move the ball forward. First: the jailing of jihadi fighters is an affront to Islam, no matter how safe the conditions are. We must be ready to meet that grievance with the right kind of action & talk. So IMO the conditions at Gitmo need to be made more, not less, severe: put them to work breaking rocks. Second: we must not continue to remain silent, or use “War on Terror” terminology, to explain what we’re doing. So, you’re outraged that kufrs are caging lawful halal jihadis like animals? Tough. Here’s what happens to you when you wage jihad against the dar al-harb.

That misunderstanding includes the implacable nature of much of the native population in Iraq. Nothing we do will ever be good enough, no amount of money sufficient, to earn their goodwill in the Western sense of the word. Islam demands its followers to dismiss all charity and goodwill from infidels as their just due, and to always demand more; to show genuine gratitude is to show weakness. Though we will see gratitude on an individual basis, the kind of “collevtive” gratitude needed to form a working bond between nations will not be forthcoming until we do something to change the mindset. This is a cultural imperative even among those who are not consciously basing their attitude on Islam.

Instead of trying to earn their goodwill, or tolerating their nascent Islamic republic (where intimidation of street vendors has gone largely unpunished and unchallenged by the Iraqi “street”) we need to go the other way, insist on banning Islam from the secular constitution that vigorously defends the autonomy and freedom of non-Muslims as a precondition of our support, stop subsidizing any myths of Islamic superiority, and evangelize a viable alternative. That is not happening now. It does not happen “implicitly” through the spending of a lot of time & resources on a Muslim population without reciprocal demands to wise up; all it does is feed the appetite for jizya, which we’re currently feeding in Egypt.

Anyhow: such an approach is not easy to follow and my outline is far from complete, but I belive it holds more promise than the approach we’re following right now, which is to try & cultivate the “gratitude” of the locals by indulging them at our own peril and expense.

They want an Islamic constitution? Fine, but no more free money (where’s your oil revenue?). We help bring more oil online – and station troops to defend the distribution network – and that’s it. And extract our repayment. We may have to return a few years down the road to fight another war against you, and we wouldn’t want to feel guilty about the about-face… ;-)

Where I differ from the nuke-em-now response is that, at the very least, we owe it to them to communicate a much tougher bottom line first. Saying next to nothing now, and inviting the kind of behavior that requires a “nuclear” response down the line, is just irresponsible on our part.

RD on June 21, 2006 at 8:36 AM

Good morning, everyone!
Glad to see I could still log on. And, I’m also glad to see that we are NOT going to carpet bomb anyone.
I am in agreement with earlier posts (good Professor, glad you told them to take deep breaths too!) that basically WE would be the barbaric ones if we did such a thing.
I still stay with my premise that as long as we have the resources and the will to fight this war, we will eventually win. it might take a generation.
One problem that I see is that Bush told us he would do what he could to “change the hearts and minds” of the islamic world by introducing democracy and freedom to oppressed people.
I think he has dropped the ball on the hearts and minds part.
I also think that “democracy” to muslims is a different concept than ours – Think Hamas winning in the palestinian territories. Yes, democracy is a good thing (or can be) but we need to be prepared if it is not our “flavor” of democracy. make sense? there is a very real possibility that democracy in the islamic world could usher in fundamentalism and sharia law.
By not reaching out to the moderates and actually, the children, we will have real problems with fundamentalist islam well into the next generation.

pullingmyhairout on June 21, 2006 at 10:20 AM

I think many of us wish we could fight this war … like its actually a war, rather than a third-rate police action with tactics influeced by politics. We tried that once, remember?

By most definitions the war is over in Iraq, what we are trying to establish is a political base for the Iraqis to police themselves, so it is impossible not to consider political influences. Indiscriminate bombing accomplishes nothing.

Yes, democracy is a good thing (or can be) but we need to be prepared if it is not our “flavor” of democracy. make sense? there is a very real possibility that democracy in the islamic world could usher in fundamentalism and sharia law.

I expect so initially, but strict sharia law is fundamentally undemocratic, I think after some growing pains Islam will reform into something more in tune with the rest of the world. There are enough variations of Islam already out there to make me believe it is not as rigid as some profess.

By not reaching out to the moderates and actually, the children, we will have real problems with fundamentalist islam well into the next generation.

That is the real key, the reason it is so important to be seen as the good guys, is if we can impress and befriend the children over there, and hold off the quitters over here, we have won.

B Moe on June 21, 2006 at 10:44 AM

I suppose it’s only a matter of time before images of these 2 young men pollute the internet. I wish there was some way to block this sort of thing, the parents of these boys don’t need this added grief. God help them.

honora on June 21, 2006 at 11:14 AM

I think after some growing pains Islam will reform

I don’t think islame will EVER reform. If it did it wouldn’t be islam.

Duty, Honor, Country
(in THAT order)

Rowane on June 21, 2006 at 11:24 AM

I did not read all the post and I did not see the ones advocating the “carpet bombing of civilians”. My two post were directed towards the terrorst insurgents. Kill them with the utmost violence. Not civilians.

LurP on June 21, 2006 at 2:25 PM

I don’t think islame will EVER reform. If it did it wouldn’t be islam.

If it don’t, it won’t be Islam either. The world is moving on, they are going to have to adapt or die as a religion, it seems to me. I think some form of moderate Islam will develop, but who knows?

B Moe on June 21, 2006 at 2:54 PM

I just read a book about Dresden.. its not as bad as you guys make out… there were plenty of other German cities we bombed with a little bit of overkill. Personally, its irrelevant, we were justified in our cause for war then and we are justified now. In all of the cases mentioned, the US bombed those targets with good cause.. in all cases, those bombings actually saved lives by shortening the conflict.

RobertCSampson on June 21, 2006 at 8:35 PM

that being said.. I disagree with mass bombings in Iraq but it is a valid point that using less discretion and more military might would encourage Iraqi civilians to turn over the insurgents to save their own homes & communities. I would have trouble with supposedly innocent Iraqi’s that aren’t motivated to move out of the areas known to be thick with insurgent activity.

RobertCSampson on June 21, 2006 at 8:39 PM

That would still be discretionary target selection, you would just be expanding the target area. Indiscriminate carpet bombing would be just bombing the hell out of random areas, which is mostly just a waste of ordinance.

B Moe on June 22, 2006 at 7:13 AM