Is Haditha a hoax? (Update: Murtha wants to be House majority leader)

posted at 2:24 pm on June 9, 2006 by Allahpundit

Clarice Feldman thinks we’re looking at Rathergate raised to the tenth power.

I think she overstates the case. Something’s definitely up with the Iraqi accusers — read (or re-read) Dan Riehl’s post from the other night and tally up the discrepancies — but sources inside the military have been saying for weeks how bad this looks. Members of Congress who have been briefed and whose last names aren’t “Murtha” sound uniformly grim. Gen. Hagee, who’s been doing some of the briefing, was himself sufficiently troubled by what he heard that he flew to Iraq to remind the Marines about the importance of human life. And commanders recently ordered re-training in “core values” for all 130,000 service members in the field.

The point is this: CBS got hoaxed on Rathergate because it wanted to believe the memos were real. The story, as Feldman says, was too good to check. But it’s not just the media that’s driving this one; it’s also the military, to the tune of two separate investigations. They have every reason not to want to believe there’s something to it — but, judging from outward appearances, they do.

Clarice also overlooks a few things. She’s right that Lance Cpl. Crossan was unconscious during the alleged massacre, but she fails to note that he hasn’t tried to defend the suspects despite having spoken to them recently (or so he claims). On the contrary, he told KING5 in Seattle that they might well have been “blinded by hate” and that, if he had been there, he might have been able to stop them. She also gets something flatly wrong about Lance Cpl. Briones — I think:

And then there is Lance Cpl. Ryan Briones. He helped evacuate Crossnan and took bodies to the morgue. He was not an eyewitness. He claims he took pictures of the bodies at the morgue and has made various statements about what happened to the pictures and his camera.

There’s no source provided for this. Feldman makes it sound like Briones was never in the houses where the shootings allegedly took place, but according to the AP, that’s simply not true:

Lance Cpl. Andrew Wright, 20, and Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones, 21, were ordered to photograph the scene with personal cameras they happened to be carrying the day of the attack, the families said. Briones’ mother, Susie, said her son told her that he saw the bodies of 23 dead Iraqis that day.

She then goes on to say of Briones:

(His report of taking the bodies to the morgue, moreover, seems inconsistent with the first Reuters report that there were 15 bodies left lying in the street the day after the incident.)

But the first Reuters report doesn’t say that. It says:

A roadside bomb that killed a US Marine in the restive town of Haditha on Saturday also killed 15 Iraqi civilians and led to intense clashes with insurgents…

US and Iraqi soldiers returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another in a firefight.

A cameraman working for Reuters in Haditha says bodies had been left lying in the street for hours after the attack.

I.e., fifteen bodies total, one or more of which had been left lying in the street.

Anyway. I’m not trying to discredit her post, which makes plenty of good points. Do check it out. Whatever else happens, she and I can both rejoice in the fact that Americans aren’t drinking the Kool-Aid.

Update: SFPH puts it well:

There is a danger here that, while the MSM may be accepting this story in a knee-jerk, Rather-like fashion because like the TANG story, it’s “too good to check,” but we on the “support the troops” side can be equally guilty of accepting the discrepancies as proof that nothing untoward happened in Haditha that day.

Update: Clarice e-mails to say she got the stuff on Briones from the Hawaii Reporter‘s article on Haditha, which does note that Briones claims to have photographed the aftermath (i.e., not just the bodies at the morgue).

Bryan, who’s an Air Force vet, writes below to say that we shouldn’t place too much emphasis on the military putting on a dog-and-pony show about core values. Meanwhile, reader Jim A. e-mails with a link to a Freeper thread posing still more questions about Time magazine’s account of Haditha.

All I’ll say is this: if it turns out Time was hoaxed, if this ends up being little more than a smear job on the Marines, the backlash will be ferocious like nothing blogs have ever seen. Rathergate will pale by comparison.

Update: Murtha decides to put all that exposure he’s been getting lately to good use. Get a load of this lede:

Rep. John Murtha, a 16-term Democrat known for his close ties to the military and his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq, said Friday he will run for House majority leader if Democrats win control in November.

Go run a search on Murtha at MilBlogs and bask in the love.

Blowback

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Please Lord, let it be a hoax. For the Marines and everyone!

shooter on June 9, 2006 at 2:30 PM

Wait, 15 killed in the blast, plus 8 killed in the firefight= 23 dead bodies.

I”m missing something. Is the claim that the 15 killed in the blast were actually (allegedly) killed by the jarheads? Cause the way its written the jihadis killed twice what we did.

Iblis on June 9, 2006 at 2:31 PM

Iblis — Yeah, that’s the claim. Supposedly, there are 24 dead by the Marines’ hand.

Allahpundit on June 9, 2006 at 2:33 PM

There a reason the HBM (Has Been Media) has ceased salivating over this one. Could it be they smell a Mapes?

Dread Pirate Roberts VI on June 9, 2006 at 2:33 PM

I have been sticking with the marines. I repeated what I have posted before…

“NOT GUILTY until they can show me the bullets inside those bodies.”

I learn not to believe anything coming out of MSM until proof is provided by our own people.

easy87us on June 9, 2006 at 2:40 PM

Ahh, the plot thins.

Iblis on June 9, 2006 at 2:43 PM

Ever since seeing the 9 year old girl interview, Eman or Iman, and the story changes, throughout this media blitz I have not believed that it happened as reported. I might be too biased, too patriotic at heart, to see this objectively, but I just cant get my mind around all the conflicts. If the ‘residents’ were the insurgents, they would state this ‘Marine killer’ story line for many obvious reasons. The kids knew where the IED’s were and covered their ears when the Humvee approched, so the whole town would have to have been part of this.
Thanks to ReihlWorldView for the chronolgy & inconsistencies, plus the folks here at Hotair for keeping it front page. We must know what really happened.

shooter on June 9, 2006 at 2:47 PM

Shame on the MSM, they will go to any lenths to embarress our fighting troops, to adversly affect their morale, and the morale on the home front. We are fighting a two front war, one overseas, and one here at home, against a two faced left-wing kook enemy that hates this country.

birdman on June 9, 2006 at 2:58 PM

I blame the whole thing on Jessie “I’m a Ranger” Macbeth.

Didn’t he kill a thousand civilians with his bare hands or something?

He probably did this, too. Damn that crazy warrior!

Professor Blather on June 9, 2006 at 3:15 PM

The REALLY sad thing is even IF this is all a big hoax or even just a deliberate smear campaign, will the arab civilians who still listen to their version of the MSM (aljismereera et al) ever going to believe the truth?

IF this does turn out to be a “Rathergate^10″ (and I hope that it does, but I’ll play skeptic for now) — or even just Rathergate squared — then the guilty parties should be SEVERLY punished. Preferably in extremely painful or even fatal ways.

RH

RobertHuntingdon on June 9, 2006 at 3:16 PM

Sure, Prof, he probably got a flight to Iraq under a false name as a means of trying to evade his court dates… and while he was over there, well, why not? Anything to provide the Treason Times et al with some more grist for their smear Bush campaigns…

Wish it was that simple. Probably not tho.

RH

RobertHuntingdon on June 9, 2006 at 3:18 PM

I don’t know what did or didn’t happen in Haditha, but I do know that the military will crucify its own as an act of self-defense against its domestic haters. Or, so a zealous and ambitious military lawyer can nail a hide to the wall. Lt. Pantano’s case comes to mind. In him the Marines had a fine officer, and they ruined his career over trumped-up accusations of war crimes.

As far as the General ordering values training and all the rest, again, that’s an act of pre-emptive self-defense against domestic (mostly Congressional) accusers. It does not, by itself, indicate anything more than the military putting lipstick on the pig it got from Haditha, no matter what happened or didn’t happen there.

The investigations are hopefully serious, but if recent history is any guide they will skew toward a prosecutorial angle rather than one of presuming innocence. Again, zealous military lawyers, and again, Congressional ambush figure into this. We just don’t give our troops the benefit of the doubt in most cases. It’s a wonder anyone joins the military at all, but then again most don’t join thinking that everything they do on a battlefield will be second-guessed by an Ivy League lawyer looking to put in some man time in uniform before going off to a six or seven figure a year civilian career.

Like I said, I don’t know what did or didn’t happen in Haditha. But I’m not sure I find the evidence of seriousness here as serious as it seems.

Bryan on June 9, 2006 at 3:30 PM

And I learn to despise people who use dead people or military records or race or whatever as shields against criticism.

For example…

Murtha….I am a Nam war hero so I am always right…..

Jersey Widows….our husbands died in 9/11 so you cannot criticize us….

McCain…I was a POW so you guys have to handle me with TLC, stop criticizing me

Pat Kennedy….I am a congressman so don’t you dare stop me for a breath test

Cindy McKinney….I am black and you are racist

William Jefferson….I am the congressman with 90k in my freezer and you are not….and I am black….I won’t step down

and the list goes on and on…..

But do you see the trend?

Liberals….liberals…liberals…

easy87us on June 9, 2006 at 3:39 PM

Let’s not start sounding like the Left. Everything that doesn’t go our way is a hoax or a conspiracy. That’s the modus operandi of the Left. Let the investigations run their course.

moc23 on June 9, 2006 at 4:01 PM

If this is a setup up hoax anyone slandered by this mess is gonna be rich.

darwin on June 9, 2006 at 4:22 PM

That the military is investigating is NOT an indication that the allegations are either serious, or true…

I was once part of a JAG investigations whose very existance was used to CLEAR me and others of an allegation a Diplowheenie had made… and given to the press…

I mights also add… with the “changing” stories… that even IF the civilians were killed by rifle fire, who (without forensics) can say they were M-16s, AND, even if so, how many M-16s are floating around Iraq in insurrgent hands?

And whatever happened to inocent until PROOVEN guilty?

Romeo13 on June 9, 2006 at 4:22 PM

From : DefendtheDefenders.org. 5/27/2005
“Lt Pantano exonerated”
Justice prevailed yesterday for Marine Corps 2nd. Lt. Ilario Pantano and for servicemen everywhere. By dropping spurious murder charges against the former Wall Street trader,–
—the Marine Corps affirms that lawyers and bureaucrats back home cannot second-guess life-or-death decisions made in the heat of battle…..
What did this statement mean? Is there any legal truth to this? Is this still in place, was it an article/code etc. introduced to law?

shooter on June 9, 2006 at 4:38 PM

We pay our taxes to support the military, it’s judicial system and the training and pay of the personnel associated with it.

Why don’t we sit back, let the investigations run their course and get our money’s worth?

As others have said, “Innocent till proven guilty”. Having spent 22 years in the military I can say it applies there also.

SSvet on June 9, 2006 at 4:53 PM

I don’t know one way or another. My guess is that something “bad” may have happened, but it was blown way out of proportion. IMO, haditha is a non-story anyway.

ecamorg on June 9, 2006 at 5:00 PM

A few observations:

Assuming the nine year old girl spoke the truth, that she knew of the IED explosion and covered her ears, the household was not filled with innocents.

Casualties sustained in the heat of battle, by individuals giving comfort and aid to the insurgents is a natural result of their actions. We should be ashamed in trying to tie the hands of our soldiers and not allowing them free rein to conduct this operation against the insurgency.

It’s amazing how the MSM inflates numbers from 8 to 24 in the stroke of a pen. I am simply aghast they can not add correctly…..must be taking math from the Godless Liberal religion school….smirks.

Eight people dying as a result of collateral damage during an IED explosion does not qualify by any stretch of the imagination as a massacre.

Just because the military is conducting a thorough investigation, does not mean there is any fire to this smoke of Haditha. I am surprised you choose to read more into it.

MarkB on June 9, 2006 at 5:07 PM

Speaking as a Jarhead, I know full well that individual Marines sometimes do stupid things. What I find unbelievable about the Haditha allegations is that it would require organized, planned stupidity on an incredible level. Can mistakes be made? Absolutely, but that’s what they are: mistakes. Civilians could very easily have been killed as those Marines returned fire at surrounding structures. Do I think a bunch of Marines went on an indiscriminate killing spree? No. Do I think the Officers and NCO’s led their Marines on an indiscriminate killing spree? No. Do I think that this could happen without ONE SINGLE MARINE WHO WAS THERE AT THE TIME saying stop, or coming forward later? Absolutely not. It is highly unlikely that those Marines even had the time to go after non-combatants like the MSM would like to believe. When someone is trying to kill you, your foremost objective (and natural inclination)is to GET THE SHOOTER, not engage in revenge killings of bystanders. I think it is far more likely that any dead civilians were killed by the jihadis who set up the ambush in their houses to maintain operational security (by the way, what was the affiliation of the jihadis? Saddamist? Al Qaeda? The affiliation/tribe of the “victims”? Any animosities there?). And I believe all of that without even considering the evidence of a hoax. When you add that to the available data, this “story” is starting to smell to high heaven.

secarr on June 9, 2006 at 5:30 PM

“Let’s not start sounding like the Left. Everything that doesn’t go our way is a hoax or a conspiracy. That’s the modus operandi of the Left”

You said it all in the above, moc23, that is their modus operandi so why should we not be suspicious of anything and everything they postulate especially when it supports their agenda which in the case of Haditha is the discrediting of our military and an early exit from Iraq.

docdave on June 9, 2006 at 6:41 PM

I am not even understanding all of this. HOW can this be happening? I am so sickened and saddened that our marines haven’t been given the benefit of the doubt. Our media has treated these fine soldiers with disrespect and disdain and i just don’t think I can stand to read/listen/see it anymore. they’ve absolutely crossed the line and unfortunately, it won’t be the last time it happens.
Very Saddened,

pullingmyhairout on June 9, 2006 at 6:43 PM

Just finished hearing Mike Medved show on 560AM Chicago.Man….there will be congressional investigation by a conservative GOP rep. This mess smells like hoax ok! The top bass of the military over-reacted to protect their a$$!

I am now almost sure that this is a hoax. The story was totally inconsistent and the sources were questionable.

The insurgents could be using the dead bodies from the IED attack to create the hoax!

Let us wait and see how it unfolds……

easy87us on June 9, 2006 at 7:25 PM

Correct…Mike Savage show…after Mike Medved show..

easy87us on June 9, 2006 at 7:38 PM

I trust our troops. It is not blind trust. I believe they are of the highest integrity and caliber that they could not possibly do such thing.

easy87us on June 9, 2006 at 7:43 PM

easy87 – I agree w/ you, well said. BZ!

Richard Davis on June 10, 2006 at 12:17 AM

Murtha wants Pelosi’s job?? Who the hell is running their Public Relations? or their Press Releases??
(someone from Al-Queda I think)

As always, The Liberals value defeat, We value victory.

Richard Davis on June 10, 2006 at 12:21 AM

This is just the beginning of the Democrat implosion! Can you hear it? It’s in the distance but it’s getting louder! Kind of like the sound of wing nuts rattling around in a 50 gallon drum.

Dread Pirate Roberts VI on June 10, 2006 at 7:56 AM

Dread pirate – lol!

Richard Davis on June 10, 2006 at 8:08 AM

Good morning,
The fact that Murtha wants to run for majority leader is even more of a reason for every conservative to get out and vote in November. I’m plenty mad at congress right now, but not mad enough to stay home and watch liberals take over the house. Can you imagine what it would be like to have Murtha or Pelosi as House Leader???? E-Gads!!

pullingmyhairout on June 10, 2006 at 9:45 AM

How does everyone feel about these marines being held in shackled at Camp Pendleton? They’re shackled at the ankles and on their hands around their waists.

MT on June 10, 2006 at 10:17 AM

I am furious and I want to see whoever made that decision has his head on a platter and present to the great American public.

Putting our soldier is shackle is equal to condemning the entire arm forces.

I believe the Commander in Cheif should be solely responsible for this atrocity against our own people. It is his attitude to please the left that led him to this kind of behavior among the RINO!

We should go after Bush on this one.

easy87us on June 10, 2006 at 10:35 AM

shackles? SHACKLES???? These boys fought to DEFEND THE U.S. and THEIR OWN LIVES. And they are being SHACKLED? Un-f’in believable. sorry about the language.

MT, where did you find out this information? i’d like a link to it, please, so i can read it with my own eyes.

pullingmyhairout on June 10, 2006 at 1:05 PM

http://www.patriotdefensefund.com

Rowane on June 10, 2006 at 4:00 PM

Michelle,
If this link about the corpsman in shackles at Camp Pendleton is real, can you PLEASE get this information out to the public? I think there will be (and should be) outrage if this is indeed true. Shackled?? Even before being brought up on charges… we treat child molesters with more care. sheesh.

pullingmyhairout on June 10, 2006 at 8:46 PM

House Majority leader and Speaker of the House are 2 different positions–Pelosi is in line for Speaker, Murtha is looking the majority leader spot. It’s not just immigrants who should have to take a civics test apparently.

honora on June 12, 2006 at 2:39 PM